Author Topic: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant  (Read 8969 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2013, 04:21:55 PM »

Offline D Dub

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Tommy Points: 75
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.

IDK, 20 shot attempts is an awful lot. 

He first has to shoot his team out of the game before he can try to shoot them back into it...

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2013, 04:30:43 PM »

Online Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26432
  • Tommy Points: 1005
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison.
Why?

You're taking shoot attempts and correlating it with wins, without looking deeper. Not to mention by picking an endpoint, in this case 20 FGA, you can mess with the data.

If you include 20 the record goes to 10-5 versus 6-18, if you go up to 24 suddenly its 14-14 versus 2-7. Do you want to include free throw attempts, assists, and turnovers as well?

You can say something similar that if he plays under 36 minutes in a game they're 8-3 versus 8-20. Or under 34 minutes they're 7-0.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2013, 04:33:14 PM »

Online AB_Celtic

  • DKC Commish
  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2960
  • Tommy Points: 398
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.

IDK, 20 shot attempts is an awful lot. 

He first has to shoot his team out of the game before he can try to shoot them back into it...

In the game against the Hawks earlier this year, Paul Pierce took 9 shots in the third quarter alone. Granted, we won that quarter 33-9 because he was feeling it, but I can absolutely see Kobe trying to get his team back into games by taking a ton of shots late.

A great example is the Lakers-Cavs game earlier this year. Kobe took 28 shots in that game.

5/6 in the first quarter
          Score: CLE 29 LAL 23
2/4 in the second quarter
          Score: CLE 54 LAL 39
4/8 in the third quarter
          Score: CLE 68 LAL 62
4/9 in the fourth quarter
          Score: CLE 100 LAL 94

There are two things to notice here:
- Kobe took 60% of his shots in the second half, in an effort to get his team back into it.
- The large amount of shots he took in the first half were because he was feeling it: 7/10.

This probably isn't even the best example. EDIT: Another example: the loss against the Nuggets. Kobe took 26 shots, 6 in the first half, 20 in the second.

To be clear, though, I hate Kobe as a person :P


Starters: D.Rose - W.Matthews - J.Butler - T.Gibson - J.Noah
Reserves: J.Nelson - A.Bradley - N.Batum - B.Diaw - J.Freeland | T.Wroten

DKC Rosters

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2013, 04:37:21 PM »

Offline D Dub

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Tommy Points: 75
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison.
Why?

You're taking shoot attempts and correlating it with wins, without looking deeper. Not to mention by picking an endpoint, in this case 20 FGA, you can mess with the data.

If you include 20 the record goes to 10-5 versus 6-18, if you go up to 24 suddenly its 14-14 versus 2-7. Do you want to include free throw attempts, assists, and turnovers as well?

You can say something similar that if he plays under 36 minutes in a game they're 8-3 versus 8-20. Or under 34 minutes they're 7-0.

it's weak because you compared the way that you score in basketball to the way you run out the clock in football.  that's like apples and giraffes... 

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2013, 04:45:50 PM »

Offline D Dub

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Tommy Points: 75
26 games so far this year where Kobe has taken > 20 shots.


yet Dwight Howard has NEVER taken 20 FGA once, averages 10.4



If you're coaching LA, is that really how you'd use these two?

 

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2013, 04:51:46 PM »

Online Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26432
  • Tommy Points: 1005
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison.
Why?

You're taking shoot attempts and correlating it with wins, without looking deeper. Not to mention by picking an endpoint, in this case 20 FGA, you can mess with the data.

If you include 20 the record goes to 10-5 versus 6-18, if you go up to 24 suddenly its 14-14 versus 2-7. Do you want to include free throw attempts, assists, and turnovers as well?

You can say something similar that if he plays under 36 minutes in a game they're 8-3 versus 8-20. Or under 34 minutes they're 7-0.

it's weak because you compared the way that you score in basketball to the way you run out the clock in football.  that's like apples and giraffes...
I'm not comparing running out the clock to how you score in basketball. I'm comparing missing the forest for the trees.

Both your example, Kobe's FGAs, and mine, QB kneeldowns, assume a causation if you're trying to use them to explain wins and losses.

Or you can take a wider view and realize, Kobe is going to shoot when he's in the game. If a game is close then Kobe is going to play more, and since close games are close when Kobe shoots more then his team is going to lose more.

Just like teams that are winning the game will kneel down and run out the clock. Or will run the ball more and wrack up more rushing attempts. Rushing attempts correlates to win as well, but that's because teams with big leads will just take the air out of the ball in the second half.

I full believe Kobe will often ball hog and that can hurt his team. Phil Jackson says so in his book when discussing Kobe. But a simplistic FGA argument like you present is a poor way to make it.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2013, 04:54:52 PM »

Online Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26432
  • Tommy Points: 1005
26 games so far this year where Kobe has taken > 20 shots.


yet Dwight Howard has NEVER taken 20 FGA once, averages 10.4



If you're coaching LA, is that really how you'd use these two?
If you want to consider how many touches Howard gets offensively you can't just look at FGA, you have to consider FTAs because he gets fouled so often near the basket.

Also why should Howard get a ton of shot attempts? He's never been a high volume shot guy, that's not his game. He's only shooting 3 less shots per game this year, with his minutes down to boot. His career average is just 11.2 FGA per game.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2013, 05:19:02 PM »

Offline D Dub

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Tommy Points: 75
26 games so far this year where Kobe has taken > 20 shots.


yet Dwight Howard has NEVER taken 20 FGA once, averages 10.4



If you're coaching LA, is that really how you'd use these two?
If you want to consider how many touches Howard gets offensively you can't just look at FGA, you have to consider FTAs because he gets fouled so often near the basket.

Also why should Howard get a ton of shot attempts? He's never been a high volume shot guy, that's not his game. He's only shooting 3 less shots per game this year, with his minutes down to boot. His career average is just 11.2 FGA per game.


a lot of Howards FTA are off-the-ball fouls, just sayin...

but admittedly, I'm not a stat guy.  I have watched all the Laker games because I didn't order league pass this year, and now the Laker channel comes with basic cable.

it's just obvious that ball movement is a major problem.  my stat backs it up. 
phil jax book backs it up. 
dhoward's post-game comments back it up.
heck even you agreed with me in your last post about it's stagnating effects. 
Qback kneel downs?  I just think that's a poor comparison


back on topic, to me, Kobe has shown little/none bball IQ when he's taking defensive possessions off to save his legs for jacking up 25 shots on the other end. 

Are you watching these guys?  Does it look like anyone on that team actually likes playing with Kobe? 

Like I said before, he's got to shoot them out of the game before he can try to shoot them back into it.  Let us not forget that most all these shot attempts are being double and triple teamed.  You are defending a style of play that has resulted in a sub-500 record and it's not like he doesn't have any help this year...

when LA shares the ball, they usually win.  when Kobe plays hero ball, they've lost quite a bit this year. 

deride my poor choice of statistic all you want but that's the reality on the ground.     

 

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2013, 05:39:25 PM »

Offline Adelaide Celt

  • Rajon Rondo
  • Posts: 855
  • Tommy Points: 129
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.

He didn't make that nickname up, he STOLE it from Roger Mayweather. I wonder what he thinks about some rapist basketballer biting on his nickname?

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2013, 05:40:41 PM »

Offline soap07

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1525
  • Tommy Points: 141
People keeps harping on the Lakers offense - that it's stagnant, Kobe is a ballhog, etc etc...in spite of all that, it is still one of the best offenses in the league. Whatever they're doing on that end, it is working.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2013, 05:55:27 PM »

Online Moranis

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9751
  • Tommy Points: 417
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.
yeah this is pretty much spot on.
2014 Pick 2 Draft 18th pick of 20
Sacramento Kings
Starters - Isaiah Thomas, Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Dirk Nowitzki, Demarcus Cousins
Bench - Kendall Marshall, Michael Carter-Williams, Vince Carter, Wesley Johnson, Marcus Morris, Miles Plumlee, Nerlens Noel

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2013, 05:56:13 PM »

Online moiso

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4353
  • Tommy Points: 126
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.

He didn't make that nickname up, he STOLE it from Roger Mayweather. I wonder what he thinks about some rapist basketballer biting on his nickname?
either way it's pretty queer to nickname yourself.  I feel the same way about Amare.  sTAT may be even worse.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 09:06:03 AM »

Online Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26432
  • Tommy Points: 1005
Bump

Saw this headline on sportscenter this morning

Bigger defensive role for Kobe Bryant

Intersting to see how many minutes per game they try this out. Phil would do this too obviously, but not a ton during the regular season. I guess with their record they need to just go for it.

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 09:08:47 AM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2013
  • Tommy Points: 198
Bump

Saw this headline on sportscenter this morning

Bigger defensive role for Kobe Bryant

Intersting to see how many minutes per game they try this out. Phil would do this too obviously, but not a ton during the regular season. I guess with their record they need to just go for it.

Thanks for the vid

If ESPN thinks Kobe is going to change the way he plays his entire life at 34, they must be in dreamland lol

Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 01:53:38 PM »

Offline Chelm

  • Jared Sullinger
  • Posts: 394
  • Tommy Points: 28

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.


He's overrated as an all-time great or legend. Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.


I agree with this.  Not that he isn't still one of the better players to play but there players from the era I think are better, Shaq being one of them for sure.  Also KG and Duncan.  But that's not the popular narrative.

When LeBron was catching all hell for going to Miami, Kobe must have been loving that he has never gotten any sort of label as a bandwagoner or guy who "has to team up with other talents to win" because he doesn't have to do it in free agency, the Lakers just do it for him.  That's probably what annoys me most, that Kobe gets all the credit for winning any title he has as if he didn't play with the players he has played with.

I'm not a big fan of the label anyways because I think you always need multiple great players but regardless, the narrative was one sided.


Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.
Seems like you could be talking about Jordan there.

So Jordan was a terrible teammate?  I don't think so.

He learned to play as a team.  Started out playing somewhat selfish (though you can debate if he had a real option not to) but he was not selfish in the way Kobe later on when he was winning titles.
The Big Shamrock would like a word with you.  Also, Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face in practice... good teammate?

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog