Author Topic: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...  (Read 5489 times)

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Online pearljammer10

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2013, 10:29:15 PM »
Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year.  The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year.  Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.

Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.

To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
It isn't a big league anymore, what teams will kill us with their bigs? And in order to get a quality big like people want we'd have to give up too much. Samuel Dalembert isn't the answer.

Its not what teams would kill us with their big men, its what teams could we kill with the big man if we had one. Miami cant defend size, if we put a legit center in the middle they would have a hard time with us.

We do have a big man problem. Outside of KG and Sully, there is no big man threat on our team. Partly due to the fact we have no player worthy of getting minutes over 6 foot 7 if wilcox is out. Collins is locker room smart, but we could definitely upgrade at his position.
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Online Fafnir

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2013, 10:30:18 PM »
Quote
  But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position.  I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics.  We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch. 

We get out rebounded a lot!   I wish I had this blind optism like this cat but I have had the misfortune to watch the games.

We are last in rebounds.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgRebounds

Bass is undersized, period.  Ideally he is a bench guy I think who can provide pop and a change of pace off the bench.   He doesn't board well for all that athletic ability.  I don't think he is as bad as a man to man defender as some here say but he is not good help defender or back up shot blocker.


Aside from KG, who is a very perimeter orientated big and Sully's emergence we could have used a big.   Do you think using Jason Collins was ideal?  I don't!
rebounds per game is the wrong thing to look at you want rebound rate.

We are still essentially tied for last but that's an offensive board is we are slightly above average on our defensive glass.

Offline j804

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2013, 11:11:40 PM »
Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year.  The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year.  Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.

Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.

To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
It isn't a big league anymore, what teams will kill us with their bigs? And in order to get a quality big like people want we'd have to give up too much. Samuel Dalembert isn't the answer.

Its not what teams would kill us with their big men, its what teams could we kill with the big man if we had one. Miami cant defend size, if we put a legit center in the middle they would have a hard time with us.

We do have a big man problem. Outside of KG and Sully, there is no big man threat on our team. Partly due to the fact we have no player worthy of getting minutes over 6 foot 7 if wilcox is out. Collins is locker room smart, but we could definitely upgrade at his position.
Not really you get a big to plug the middle but if you have to give up Lee or Bradley our strength in our backcourt defense would suffer. You would have guys beating us off the dribble, it wouldn't matter then who is back there. You notice before Avery was back and him and Courtney started playing this stifling defense it wouldn't matter who was back there, even KG our defense was awful teams lived in the paint. You got to keep Bradley and Lee. These guys alone are one of the biggest reasons we are giving teams hell and playing lockdown defense.


Offline OsirusCeltics

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2013, 12:53:50 AM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

How do you figure?  Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous.  Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will.  Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.

Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth

His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.

He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's. 

His team defense is terrible.

He has zero post up game

He has no range outside 15 feet

He's an average (at best) rebounder

With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract.  With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.

Totally agree, said it better than I could

Bass can't guard a statue

Offline ScottHow

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2013, 01:06:19 AM »
IMO we have two big men, KG and Sully.

This year Bass is just a guy who is going to run around with energy, but not do much right.

Collins just fouls, fouls, and fouls.

I don't consider Green a big man.

Wilcox is injured.


Offline Yogi

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2013, 03:14:35 AM »
When a 27 year old player's numbers are lower than their career average that means they are in a slump.  Brandon Bass has proven throughout his career that he is one of the best isolation defenders and mid range jump shooters in the league.  This is very important because the athleticism of the Heat make it necessary to switch when guarding Lebron.
http://redsarmy.com/2012/10/22/the-case-for-starting-brandon-bass/

The best big that we can reasonably trade for is Marcin Gortat.  I hate to burst people's bubble here, but Gortat would do absolutely nothing to help against the Heat.

March 20th, 2012 matched up against Dexter Pitman and Chris Bosh:
Gortat 13 points in 6-13 shooting. 8r 1a 1b for a -7
Pittman and Bosh combined for 15-22 for 35 points and a combined +21.

November 17th matched up against the much smaller Bosh and Battier:
Gortat 4 points in 2-5 shooting.  6r 2s 1b for a -11
Bosh and Battier combined for 13-19 FG for 24 points and were a combined +35.

The first game he had Steve Nash feeding him the ball and the second had Goran Dragic so he was playing with excellent point guards. 

Unless you happen to have a trade for Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol type player there is no center that is going to dominate the Heat.  More likely they would stand around and let Battier and Bosh drain 3 after 3. 

The Celtics on the other hand took the Heat to 7 games playing small with Ray Allen, Marquis Daniels, Sasha Pavlovic, Mikael Pietrus, Greg Stiemsma, Ryan Hollins and Keyon Dooling. 

Avery Bradley, Jason Terry, Jeff Green, Jared Sullinger, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Leandro Barbosa are an upgrade in every position. 

If you want to beat the Heat you need athletic players who can contest the 3 and make life difficult for Lebron and Wade if forced to switch.  That is Lee, Green and Bass.  Trading 2 or three of these guys for a 7 footer who will be forced to sit in the bench because they are useless against the Heat is a sure fire way to lose to them. 
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Offline mctyson

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2013, 05:54:05 AM »
I agree we do not have a big man "problem"

But: we definitely do not have an optimum big situation, when we are relying on a 20-year old rookie to be our best rebounder and post scorer.

We could use some help.

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2013, 10:35:20 AM »
We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.

1. KG is an elite big man on the floor.

2. Jared Sullinger is a rebounding machine, high percentage scorer, and ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE big men in the league.  Here's some analysis by Matty Mackay from Celtics life.  http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html

3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day.  But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting.  He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries.  That really threw off his offensive game.  Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back.  He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well. 

4.  Jeff Green coming off of heart surgery lost a lot of muscle and rhythm.  He's slowly rounding into shape but he's a match up nightmare in the 4 spot when we go small.  He can shoot the 3 pretty well for a PF.  His rebounding and defense has improves every game.

5.  Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green.  He's also had other injuries.  He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm.  He WILL be a factor later in the season.  An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.

6.  Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes.  Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman?  He brings something extremely important.  He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots.  This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication.  This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk.  In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively.  They both talk well and took charges.  Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.

7.  Fab Melo doesn't count.  Unless we have a slew of injuries at the big position he will not play this year.  He's a nice prospect though. 

Would it be nice to have a talented young big man like Cousins?  Yes.  But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position.  I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics.  We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.

sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out. We will need that for 48 minutes a game IF we get a chance to play miami again. Sure, sully can rebound and is scoring better. but he is not a 5. nor can he elevate and block shots. neither can wilcox of collins block shots.we need help. There is no denying this. We will NOT beat the heat with small ball. Or with sully, wilcox, or collins at the 5 when KG is out. You can take that to the bank. trade collins and bass for a big even throw ina pick if need be. at least get a guy who can block shots and rebound some. remember AB cannot do it all and he will need help also. It goes both ways and I rarely see anyone mention this. Everyone is all caught up being reactionary to our current win streak. sure, it is great! but i am looking far down the road on what it will take to beat the heat.

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2013, 10:36:15 AM »
They have KG and two PFs. 


When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.



And finally, the target for this team is the Heat.  Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.

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Offline Chief

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2013, 10:54:50 AM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

How do you figure?  Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous.  Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will.  Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.

Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth

His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.

He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's. 

His team defense is terrible.

He has zero post up game

He has no range outside 15 feet

He's an average (at best) rebounder

With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract.  With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.

Totally agree, said it better than I could

Bass can't guard a statue

I agree too!!!!
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Online LooseCannon

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2013, 11:44:29 AM »
sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.

Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.
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Offline cman88

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2013, 12:10:24 PM »
This 5 game win streak we have beaten teams with so called "elite centers" I think the team is fine right now.

our Elite Guard defense from Lee/Bradley has really aided in compensating for not having a "natural center" besides KG


and the problem is, to get a center you may have to give up someone like Lee...and that greatly weakens what is making our team successful right now.

Offline ScottHow

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2013, 12:36:34 PM »
sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.

Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.


Online Celtics18

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2013, 12:38:13 PM »
I like the team we've got.  When you've got a team that relies on depth as one of it's strongest qualities, I think that can time some time to gel. 

We got off to a slow start when the stars were playing well, but most of the role players weren't living up to their billing.  Right now the role players are playing well and we are winning, but the stars seem to be in a bit of a funk.  When we hit the next stage, and everybody is balling like they are supposed, look out.  I think this team's got some serious potential. 

Miami will always be the favorites in the East, regardless of whether we make a move or not, but as I've thought since the off-season, we've got the team with the most potential to knock them off. 

In short, keep the squad together, Danny.  Messing with it now is too much of a risk. 

Hopefully, we can pick up a free agent that helps shore up our front line without shaking things up. 
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Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2013, 01:03:17 PM »
sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.

Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.

well if bass is traded, i am thinking sully will be the starter and will be on the bench with KG at that time. wilcox can play the 4 now we just need a 5.

 

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