Author Topic: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...  (Read 5430 times)

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Offline Birdman

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 06:45:59 PM »
pass on Samuel!!!

Offline j804

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2013, 06:49:24 PM »
A small addition would be good but not giving up Bass for some mediocre big. The starting unit will get it together soon enough.


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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 06:54:12 PM »
We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.

1. KG is an elite big man on the floor.

2. Jared Sullinger is a rebounding machine, high percentage scorer, and ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE big men in the league.  Here's some analysis by Matty Mackay from Celtics life.  http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html

3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day.  But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting.  He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries.  That really threw off his offensive game.  Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back.  He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well. 

4.  Jeff Green coming off of heart surgery lost a lot of muscle and rhythm.  He's slowly rounding into shape but he's a match up nightmare in the 4 spot when we go small.  He can shoot the 3 pretty well for a PF.  His rebounding and defense has improves every game.

5.  Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green.  He's also had other injuries.  He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm.  He WILL be a factor later in the season.  An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.

6.  Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes.  Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman?  He brings something extremely important.  He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots.  This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication.  This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk.  In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively.  They both talk well and took charges.  Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.

7.  Fab Melo doesn't count.  Unless we have a slew of injuries at the big position he will not play this year.  He's a nice prospect though. 

Would it be nice to have a talented young big man like Cousins?  Yes.  But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position.  I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics.  We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.



First the Bass comment then the Collins...this much laughing in a day is unsafe for my health!

Offline triboy16f

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2013, 06:58:41 PM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

If you get someone who can score from the point, bass will get taken advantage of.

On the offense, all he can do is shoot the two. You have to spoonfeed him the ball. Guys will cheat off of him and usually you won't pay , by doing this

All in all bass is ok , but better to get a legit C that can at least give you offensive rebounds and block shots. I think i just mentioned Melo here

I'm sure danny will try to move him, if anybody wants him. Not many will
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Offline CelticSooner

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2013, 07:00:51 PM »
Miami hasnt sign Birdman yet..maybe something wrong with him??

It may have something to do with him being a Celtic fan.  8)


Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 07:33:02 PM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

How do you figure?  Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous.  Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will.  Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.

Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth

His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.

He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's. 

His team defense is terrible.

He has zero post up game

He has no range outside 15 feet

He's an average (at best) rebounder

With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract.  With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.

Online Roy H.

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2013, 07:42:33 PM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

How do you figure?  Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous.  Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will.  Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.

Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth

His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.

He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's. 

His team defense is terrible.

He has zero post up game

He has no range outside 15 feet

He's an average (at best) rebounder

With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract.  With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.

The truth is somewhere in between.

Bass has never been an elite defender against SFs.  He tried his best against Lebron, but he just didn't have the skill set to defend the best player in the world.

However, last year his defense was really quite good.  Last year, Bass ranked 16th in the NBA in terms of points allowed per possession.  He ranked 14th in isolation situations, 7th on post-ups, and 2nd covering the pick-and-roll man.  That's really excellent defense.  A lot of it was the KG factor, but overall Bass did a really good job.

This year, he's been much more mediocre, and his decline has been a big part of our early season struggles.

Also, in terms of the statement "He has no range outside 15 feet", that's simply not true.  Last season, Bass was most prolific shot was from 16 feet out to the 3PT line.  Link.

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Offline OsirusCeltics

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 07:45:31 PM »
Wait did you just say Bass is one of the best One on One defenders in the league???

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2013, 08:18:11 PM »
Don't agree with OP ,   if not for the "LUCK" of Sully falling for the C's we'd we be in pretty serious trouble.

Especially with Bass playing so aweful.

Hummm...did I mention Bass was aweful...good lord.....dat boy gots 6 thumbs .

Sully playing well also exposes how weak Bass is as a starter PF. 

Not to pile on Bass, but his shooting worse than JET  too.

I would love or someone to explain to Bass how you have to rebound with BOTH HANDS and pull it in.  He taps the ball to the other team. 

We got a HUGE BIG man hole to fill .  And its gonna get worse as KG ages.

A young star power center like Cousins is exactly what we need to have furture continued suscess.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 08:29:59 PM by SHAQATTACK »

Offline jdz101

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2013, 08:20:09 PM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

How do you figure?  Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous.  Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will.  Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.

Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth

His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.

He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's. 

His team defense is terrible.

He has zero post up game

He has no range outside 15 feet

He's an average (at best) rebounder

With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract.  With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.

The truth is somewhere in between.

Bass has never been an elite defender against SFs.  He tried his best against Lebron, but he just didn't have the skill set to defend the best player in the world.

However, last year his defense was really quite good.  Last year, Bass ranked 16th in the NBA in terms of points allowed per possession.  He ranked 14th in isolation situations, 7th on post-ups, and 2nd covering the pick-and-roll man.  That's really excellent defense.  A lot of it was the KG factor, but overall Bass did a really good job.

This year, he's been much more mediocre, and his decline has been a big part of our early season struggles.

Also, in terms of the statement "He has no range outside 15 feet", that's simply not true.  Last season, Bass was most prolific shot was from 16 feet out to the 3PT line.  Link.

Doc has to take some of the responsibility for Brandon's early poor returns. He shuffled lineups quite a bit and bass was the guy that got moved around the most. I reckon we would have been in a better place right now if doc had just weathered the storm while starting Brandon instead of moving sully up or the god awful mess that was Jason Collins starting.


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Offline BballTim

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2013, 09:18:20 PM »
They have KG and two PFs. 


When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.



And finally, the target for this team is the Heat.  Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.

The KG statement has not been entirely true for the last few games.  Last year we had to deal with Pietrus, Ryan Hollins, Greg Stiemsma, JaJuan Johnson and Sean Williams when KG went to the bench.  This year we have Green, Sullinger, Collins, Wilcox and Melo.  That's an upgrade in every postion. 

*edit As far as the Heat, we took them to 7 games as I recall with a much worse frontline and hold a healthy edge over them in the regular season match ups.  The bigger Bulls, Pacers and even thunder didn't do much against them.


The names do not matter.


The Celtics defense is 12 points better when KG is on the floor. 


That is an issue for this team.

  The point is, while the defense is 12 points better when KG was on the floor, a few weeks ago the defense was 18 points better when KG was on the floor. Since it's a cumulative number, the deficit has gone down over time. During our winning streak (5 games) we're a combined +24 with KG on the bench. That's an encouraging sign.


Offline BballTim

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2013, 09:32:25 PM »
Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.

How do you figure?  Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous.  Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will.  Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.

Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth

His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.

He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's. 

His team defense is terrible.

He has zero post up game

He has no range outside 15 feet

 Aside from the fact that he's a better defender than you claim, his shooting from 16-23 feet has been well above average 6 years in a row.

Offline CFAN38

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2013, 09:40:23 PM »
In terms of pure talent the Cs dont have a big man prolem. However they do have a big man rotation problem.

This month has shown that Sully is our 2nd best big behind KG. With this our current big man rotation sits 1.KG 2. Sully 3. Bass 4. Collins 5. Wilcox.  The issue lies with the fact that the celtics rotation is assentaily a 3 man rotation with collins getting minimal minutes. Ideally the 3rd big in the rotation compliments the 1st and the 2nd. Bass does not, he fits well with KG (though not ideal on the boards), bass and sully are an issue. An example of a solid rotation is the Bulls with Noah, Boozer and Gibson. Gibson fits nicely on the court either boozer or noah. The celtics do not need a talent upgrade at their 3rd big (bass really is a solid 3rd big) but they do need a differnt type of player. If bass was replaced with a 6'9"+ athletic shot blocking big man then the Cs big man rotion would be exceptional. (example Tyrus Thomas, Ekpe Udoh, Sam Dalembert, Ed Davis, Brandon Wright, Amir Johnson) 

Online Fafnir

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2013, 09:53:09 PM »
We still lack someone who can anchor the d and protect the paint when KG is out.

A Stiemsma type backup C would really complete the rotation. Just need 10 to 15 minutes to hold down the fort.

Offline Celtics4ever

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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2013, 10:24:05 PM »
Quote
  But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position.  I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics.  We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch. 

We get out rebounded a lot!   I wish I had this blind optism like this cat but I have had the misfortune to watch the games.

We are last in rebounds.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgRebounds

Bass is undersized, period.  Ideally he is a bench guy I think who can provide pop and a change of pace off the bench.   He doesn't board well for all that athletic ability.  I don't think he is as bad as a man to man defender as some here say but he is not good help defender or back up shot blocker.


Aside from KG, who is a very perimeter orientated big and Sully's emergence we could have used a big.   Do you think using Jason Collins was ideal?  I don't!

 

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