Author Topic: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...  (Read 6000 times)

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The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« on: January 12, 2013, 05:29:21 PM »

Offline Yogi

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We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.

1. KG is an elite big man on the floor.

2. Jared Sullinger is a rebounding machine, high percentage scorer, and ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE big men in the league.  Here's some analysis by Matty Mackay from Celtics life.  http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html

3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day.  But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting.  He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries.  That really threw off his offensive game.  Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back.  He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well. 

4.  Jeff Green coming off of heart surgery lost a lot of muscle and rhythm.  He's slowly rounding into shape but he's a match up nightmare in the 4 spot when we go small.  He can shoot the 3 pretty well for a PF.  His rebounding and defense has improves every game.

5.  Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green.  He's also had other injuries.  He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm.  He WILL be a factor later in the season.  An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.

6.  Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes.  Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman?  He brings something extremely important.  He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots.  This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication.  This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk.  In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively.  They both talk well and took charges.  Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.

7.  Fab Melo doesn't count.  Unless we have a slew of injuries at the big position he will not play this year.  He's a nice prospect though. 

Would it be nice to have a talented young big man like Cousins?  Yes.  But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position.  I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics.  We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch. 
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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 05:35:05 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year.  The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year.  Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.

Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.

To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 05:49:01 PM »

Online diconzo

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We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.

3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day.  But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting.  He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries.  That really threw off his offensive game.  Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back.  He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well.

That Brandon Bass was the Brandon Bass last year. The one who one of THE BEST Mid-Range jump shooter in the league.

As for;

5.  Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green.  He's also had other injuries.  He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm.  He WILL be a factor later in the season.  An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.

6.  Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes.  Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman?  He brings something extremely important.  He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots.  This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication.  This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk.  In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively.  They both talk well and took charges.  Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.

I could not AGREE more. Wilcox/Collins get a bad rep around here, but they were brought here for specific non-statistic roles to fill, which they've done so far. I also don't consider Green a "big man" even though I agree he needs to be slid to PF at times, just not all the time. All that said, Wilcox & Collins should be our third string bigs, not backups.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 06:03:37 PM by diconzo »

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 05:56:48 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Dont forget Fab!!!! :-X

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM »

Online wdleehi

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They have KG and two PFs. 


When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.



And finally, the target for this team is the Heat.  Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 06:01:00 PM »

Offline Yogi

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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year.  The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year.  Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.

Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.

To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.

That's a pretty accurate summary of how people view this team. 

Bass is struggling, but he's had a reason to struggle.  Now that his role is clear and he's on the floor with Rondo, Bradley and KG he will become a better player than he was last year. 

Jason Collins is a below average basketball player for sure, but what he brings for short minutes when KG goes to the bench is completely unappreciated.  When KG is not on the floor, he orchestrates the defense. 

Jeff Green and Chris Wilcox will get better and better the further they move from their surgery.  Chris Wilcox is the Leandro Barbosa of our big men.  When everyone is healthy, his role is to come in for short bursts and give us energy and change the pace.  I'd say he's been extremely consistent in that role. 

Jeff Green has the most difficult role of all the Celtics.  He has to change constantly from being a perimeter player to a big man.  Most players are simply guards, wings or bigs.  There will NEVER be consistency in terms of production from Jeff Green because he is the only player whose ROLE changes from possession to possession.  But when Jeff consistently brings energy, defense, hustle etc.  we are a better team.  I don't know about you, but he's been pretty darn consistent in that respect the last 6-7 games. 
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Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 06:04:29 PM »

Offline Birdman

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if we had a legit big last year, we would beat the Heat

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2013, 06:10:02 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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if we had a Avery Bradley last year, we would beat the Heat
Fixed it for you.

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2013, 06:11:30 PM »

Offline Yogi

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They have KG and two PFs. 


When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.



And finally, the target for this team is the Heat.  Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.

The KG statement has not been entirely true for the last few games.  Last year we had to deal with Pietrus, Ryan Hollins, Greg Stiemsma, JaJuan Johnson and Sean Williams when KG went to the bench.  This year we have Green, Sullinger, Collins, Wilcox and Melo.  That's an upgrade in every postion. 

*edit As far as the Heat, we took them to 7 games as I recall with a much worse frontline and hold a healthy edge over them in the regular season match ups.  The bigger Bulls, Pacers and even thunder didn't do much against them.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 06:19:06 PM by Yogi »
CelticsBlog DKC Pelicans
J. Lin/I. Canaan/N. Wolters
E. Gordon/A. Shved
N. Batum/A. Roberson
A. Davis/K. Olynyk/M. Scott
D. Cousins/A. Baynes/V. Faverani
Rights: A. Abrines, R. Neto, L. Jean-Charles  Coach: M. Williams

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2013, 06:26:48 PM »

Online wdleehi

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They have KG and two PFs. 


When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.



And finally, the target for this team is the Heat.  Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.

The KG statement has not been entirely true for the last few games.  Last year we had to deal with Pietrus, Ryan Hollins, Greg Stiemsma, JaJuan Johnson and Sean Williams when KG went to the bench.  This year we have Green, Sullinger, Collins, Wilcox and Melo.  That's an upgrade in every postion. 

*edit As far as the Heat, we took them to 7 games as I recall with a much worse frontline and hold a healthy edge over them in the regular season match ups.  The bigger Bulls, Pacers and even thunder didn't do much against them.


The names do not matter.


The Celtics defense is 12 points better when KG is on the floor. 


That is an issue for this team. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2013, 06:32:59 PM »

Offline Birdman

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if we had a Avery Bradley last year, we would beat the Heat
Fixed it for you.
That is true also!!

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2013, 06:43:37 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year.  The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year.  Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.

Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.

To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.

How? Sign Birdman?

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2013, 06:44:19 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The suggestion that Bass is one of the best one-on-one defenders in the league is laughable.  Every night he seems to get one good defensive play (like a key block, steal or good defensive possession) purely as a result of his high level of 'hustle' but the vast majority of his time on the court his defense is average at best, poor at worst.

I don't agree either that he will improve over last season's form.  Even before this season began I was saying Bass pretty much reached his ceiling, and we wouldn't really see much more from him than we already have.  So far this season he's been a major degradation compared to last season.  He's finally showing some signs of improvement (he seems happier as a starter and his shot is slowly returning) but I believe he will only improve up to last years level and then hit a wall.  He simply doesn't have much potential.

Do I think we have a weakness in the frontcourt?  Yeh, I do.  I think our weaknesses are:

1. Starting PF
2. Backup center

Bass is decent as a backup PF but he's mediocre as a starter...upgrading our starting PF (somebody like David West, Paul Millsap)  while keeping Sullinger coming off the bench would be a major upgrade.

At the center position KG has been outstanding, no surprise there.  His numbers on a per 36 minute basis are still pretty much on par with 2008 and his defense is as good as ever.  Our backup center (Collins) is a decent third string center, but he's just not solid enough to be a primary backup.  He's too limited offensively and as a rebounder.  Picking up a starting center (like Gortat, Cousins, etc) actually might not help us much because it would force KG to move back to PF, and when he's started at PF this season (small sample size, granted) he's struggled.  This is why I think a solid backup center (Dalembert, Hickson, Mahinmi, etc) might actually be more suitable for us than a star center.

No doubt that Barbosa, Bass an Collins are our most expendable players right now, and if we could get a servicable center like Mahinmi in return for say Bass and Barbosa, I think that would be a massive upgrade.  It allows us to move Sully to the starting PF spot and back him up with a combination of Wilcox (when he returns) and Green (who needs more minutes anyway).


Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2013, 06:45:04 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Miami hasnt sign Birdman yet..maybe something wrong with him??

Re: The Celtics don't have a big man problem...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 06:45:04 PM »

Offline j804

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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year.  The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year.  Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.

Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.

To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
It isn't a big league anymore, what teams will kill us with their bigs? And in order to get a quality big like people want we'd have to give up too much. Samuel Dalembert isn't the answer.


 

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