Author Topic: Doc "not playing rookies"  (Read 3485 times)

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Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 03:31:58 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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it was completely unnecessary to play Pierce that much during the season, and a poor decision to do so.
Only if you don't value winning games, which you don't so that's where we are.

Doc was playing to win that year, he's since adjusted his handling of Pierce somewhat and especially KG as they've gotten even older.

You really think we go farther than we did in 2008-2009 if Pierce played 3 minutes less per game for two months? Doc did a magnificent coaching job that season to get where we did.

I have no problem with playing to win, I don't agree with his strategy to play Pierce that much throught the season, particularly with the huge cushion we had built for ourselves early in the season... and for that matter, do you believe that playing Pierce 3 minutes less per game during those months would've altered in any shape or form the standings? Maybe we fall to 3rd seed, "big deal". I'm not advocating losing games during the season, but I don't believe Pierce needed to play those minutes to accomplish getting the wins we got.

In fact, giving Pierce more rests in game would've allowed us to win more potentially, particularly when Pierce looked so out of gas, during the season, in 4th quarters... even back then there were signs of Pierce playing too many minutes. It's really was a warrior's effort what he did in the post season, too bad it fell short.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 03:34:49 PM »

Offline Chris

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.

I agree with this.  Although I will add another layer.  I think he goes by the philosophy that forcefeeding minutes to guys who aren't ready is more likely to stunt their growth than help it.

I think, for example, he genuinely felt that if he put Bradley out there before he was ready, it would have actually slowed down his development, rather than speeding it up.  Whether he is right or not, who knows, but I think he has had a lot of success with that philosophy.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 03:40:12 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.

I agree with this.  Although I will add another layer.  I think he goes by the philosophy that forcefeeding minutes to guys who aren't ready is more likely to stunt their growth than help it.

I think, for example, he genuinely felt that if he put Bradley out there before he was ready, it would have actually slowed down his development, rather than speeding it up.  Whether he is right or not, who knows, but I think he has had a lot of success with that philosophy.
I 100% agree with this, especially given what Doc has said about Gerald Green. He gave an interview about how winning the dunk competition was the worst thing to happen for Gerald.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 03:43:31 PM »

Offline Chris

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.

I agree with this.  Although I will add another layer.  I think he goes by the philosophy that forcefeeding minutes to guys who aren't ready is more likely to stunt their growth than help it.

I think, for example, he genuinely felt that if he put Bradley out there before he was ready, it would have actually slowed down his development, rather than speeding it up.  Whether he is right or not, who knows, but I think he has had a lot of success with that philosophy.
I 100% agree with this, especially given what Doc has said about Gerald Green. He gave an interview about how winning the dunk competition was the worst thing to happen for Gerald.

I also heard rumors (unsubstantiated, but they passed the smell test) that he was not thrilled to be playing him when he did, but was told to basically showcase him.  He thought playing him was basically just reinforcing the bad habits they were trying to break him of in practice. 

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 04:41:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

Doc clearly was gunning for the 1 or 2 seed that season even once KG went down so he rode Pierce more once that happened.

  One of the reason Paul's minutes went up is that TA was injured for most of February and March that year.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 04:56:26 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.

I agree with this.  Although I will add another layer.  I think he goes by the philosophy that forcefeeding minutes to guys who aren't ready is more likely to stunt their growth than help it.

I think this is the correct philosophy to have.  I'd rather have a guy like Fab Melo stay too long in the D-League rather than have him brought up and given minutes too soon.
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Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 05:12:48 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

Doc clearly was gunning for the 1 or 2 seed that season even once KG went down so he rode Pierce more once that happened.

  One of the reason Paul's minutes went up is that TA was injured for most of February and March that year.

That and Scal was out with his concussion and what not. We had injuries everywhere, we had no one but Walker and Giddens pretty much. So you pick one, Walker, and you play him a few minutes a game. Nothing lost. At the worst, give him enough playing time to prepare him as possible for the playoffs in the case he's needed.

That's the roster he had, and the goal was a championship. It's absurd to put that to put that responsibility on the rook, but it's what we had.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 05:30:49 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.

I agree with this.  Although I will add another layer.  I think he goes by the philosophy that forcefeeding minutes to guys who aren't ready is more likely to stunt their growth than help it.

I think, for example, he genuinely felt that if he put Bradley out there before he was ready, it would have actually slowed down his development, rather than speeding it up.  Whether he is right or not, who knows, but I think he has had a lot of success with that philosophy.

  One thing that kind of works against Doc is his playing rookies in situations where they'll be relatively successful. It makes them look like they're more ready than they are. I remember the "Doc doesn't play young guys" complaint about either Powe or Baby with the stats that the player produced well when given minutes. The reality of the situation was that when we had matchups that were especially bad for the player Doc wouldn't use him, so people saw him succeed but didn't see him struggle much.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 05:34:12 PM »

Offline satch

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doc would never played Avery last year if not for several injuries to other players....same with rondo during his early years. doc stumbled into these decisions. i'm afraid there is a pay day coming for doc's stubborn BS concerning developing young players. pp is getting way to many minutes...

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »

Offline Chris

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.

I agree with this.  Although I will add another layer.  I think he goes by the philosophy that forcefeeding minutes to guys who aren't ready is more likely to stunt their growth than help it.

I think, for example, he genuinely felt that if he put Bradley out there before he was ready, it would have actually slowed down his development, rather than speeding it up.  Whether he is right or not, who knows, but I think he has had a lot of success with that philosophy.

  One thing that kind of works against Doc is his playing rookies in situations where they'll be relatively successful. It makes them look like they're more ready than they are. I remember the "Doc doesn't play young guys" complaint about either Powe or Baby with the stats that the player produced well when given minutes. The reality of the situation was that when we had matchups that were especially bad for the player Doc wouldn't use him, so people saw him succeed but didn't see him struggle much.

Yeah, it really does play against him.  And unfortunately, it is an argument that cannot be won.

Whenever players sit on the bench, and the when they get on the court play well, there is no way to prove whether they are playing well now, because they are ready, and if they had played earlier, they would not have played well, or whether they were always ready, and Doc just didn't play them.

That is why whenever this topic comes up, it drives me nuts, because it is an impossible argument.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 05:37:05 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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doc would never played Avery last year if not for several injuries to other players....same with rondo during his early years. doc stumbled into these decisions. i'm afraid there is a pay day coming for doc's stubborn BS concerning developing young players. pp is getting way to many minutes...

33 minutes a game sounds about right, Doc is not over playing Pierce.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.
Doc isn't good at "force feeding" anyone minutes.

Simple fact is when healthy, Doc plays the players playing their best. When not healthy Doc plays players he has available.

I really do not think this is an uncommon trait amongst coaches trying to win championships. Their job is to win games, playoff series and rings, not develop young players quickly by "force feeding" them minutes they haven't earned.

There's just not a lot of rookies from championship caliber teams that were not given playing time from that championship that went on somewhere else and became really good. Pop doesn't have it happen to him. Same for Doc. Same for Phil Jackson. Same for Pat Riley. Same for most coaches of championship caliber teams.
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Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 05:58:05 PM »

Offline Yogi

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Do people kind of feel stupid saying this?

I mean look at AB and Sully right now, could he of brought AB and is bringing Sully along any better?

Nope, don't feel stupid at all.  in fact, I still feel pretty righteous about it.  the thing is, it's not that "Doc doesn't play rookies".  Rondo, BBD, Semih and others in the pre-KG era saw the court in their rookie season.  The TRUE statement is "Doc doesn't play rookies when there's a vet alternative available".  That's a key difference.  have any doubts about that?  take the case of Sully this year.  Ask yourself, what vet can Doc be use behind Bass?   The answer is no one thus Sully has gotten court time.

Same situation applied to Rondo, BBD, Powe, Ryan Gomes, Big Al, Perk, TA, Semih.  All talented young players (not as good as they are now) that didn't see court time as rookies until the vet(s) on the roster were knocked out due to injuries. 

I present this argument every time a similar thread gets started and no one has presented a single example of a vet that Doc sat in favor of a younger player.  The closest was Rondo's rookie season when he started out behind 2nd year player telfair and Telfair played himself onto the bench.

   This is also not true. In 2007, Perk and Big Al started over Gomes, Ratliff, Scal, Olowokandi.  In 2008 Baby, Perk and Powe played over Scalabrine, Pollard and Brown.  Last year, he did start Avery Bradley in his second year over some HOF that wore 20.  He began this year starting Sullinger over Bass, Collins, Wilcox, Darko.  Is that enough?
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Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 05:59:16 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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There are some bad teams out there with immature locker room cultures because a bunch of young players were given automatic minutes because of where they were drafted.  Doc may make some players resentful of lack of playing time, but he can't be accused of building up the detrimental sense of entitlement that some young players have.
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Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 06:01:31 PM »

Offline Atzar

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doc would never played Avery last year if not for several injuries to other players....same with rondo during his early years. doc stumbled into these decisions. i'm afraid there is a pay day coming for doc's stubborn BS concerning developing young players. pp is getting way to many minutes...

There's some revisionist history here.  Rondo averaged 23.5 minutes per game across 78 games in his rookie year.  He certainly played early.  As for Bradley, Doc tried playing him last year before his breakout.  It resulted in a bunch of "Bradley = Garbage" threads, because frankly the kid sucked before he started figuring things out. 

Until that game against Orlando where Bradley humiliated Jameer Nelson, nothing had happened to give Doc (or anybody) confidence that Bradley would produce given extended minutes.  It's a credit to the kid for treating his first real opportunity like it was a game 7.  That more than anything was what earned him the team's trust and, ultimately, brought him out of his shell.

 

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