Author Topic: Doc "not playing rookies"  (Read 3593 times)

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Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 02:39:58 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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The context being missed though is the roster we had during that times. For example, when Walker was here, he needed to play, there was no one else, yet Doc refused to play him. The result? He ran Paul Pierce to the ground, who then ran out of gas during the playoffs... very unavoidable. To add insult to injury, Doc constantly played Scal as a SF too much for anyone's tastes, and he was pretty awful in that position.

Moore should've played a bit more last year too. Dooling wasn't any good for us as a PG. and when Moore got the opportunities, he at least was a bit decent.

You put a vet, who are worse than Walker and Moore, and I'd guarantee you that Doc would've given them playing time.

That's just the way he's wired. Now, if a rookie who's actually good, like Sully and to a lesser degree Baby, he'll play them some. But sometimes he's too stubborn when roster situation dictates he should've used some rookies to fill some roles regardless of their competence.

I think this is the definition of nit picking to be honest.

He played his all stars big minutes which is how you win in this league and how you go far in the playoffs.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 02:42:52 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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The context being missed though is the roster we had during that times. For example, when Walker was here, he needed to play, there was no one else, yet Doc refused to play him. The result? He ran Paul Pierce to the ground, who then ran out of gas during the playoffs... very unavoidable. To add insult to injury, Doc constantly played Scal as a SF too much for anyone's tastes, and he was pretty awful in that position.

Moore should've played a bit more last year too. Dooling wasn't any good for us as a PG. and when Moore got the opportunities, he at least was a bit decent.

You put a vet, who are worse than Walker and Moore, and I'd guarantee you that Doc would've given them playing time.

That's just the way he's wired. Now, if a rookie who's actually good, like Sully and to a lesser degree Baby, he'll play them some. But sometimes he's too stubborn when roster situation dictates he should've used some rookies to fill some roles regardless of their competence.

I think this is the definition of nit picking to be honest.

He played his all stars big minutes which is how you win in this league and how you go far in the playoffs.

Am I talking about the playoffs? I'm talking about the regular season. In April, he was playing Pierce about 40 minutes a game! That's just nuts.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 02:46:02 PM »

Offline jbaerg

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Gody was good against the Pistons for that one game ;)

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 02:48:36 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

Doc clearly was gunning for the 1 or 2 seed that season even once KG went down so he rode Pierce more once that happened.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 02:56:23 PM »

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

We could've lost all the games in that 40 minute month, and still make the playoffs as a 4th seed. It was completely unnecessary. It was unnecessary to play him that much to even win games, just like it's been unnecessary for Doc to play Rondo has much as he's done this year. It's counter intuitive, but energy plays into it. Pierce for example, was often out of gas in 4th quarters of many of those games, so even with the intent of winning games it was hurting us.

But sorry, I meant March indeed... April just had a few games. ESPN's new game log format is idiotic.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 02:58:31 PM »

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Semih on my way!

Loved that guy

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 03:00:53 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

We could've lost all the games in that 40 minute month, and still make the playoffs as a 4th seed. It was completely unnecessary. It was unnecessary to play him that much to even win games, just like it's been unnecessary for Doc to play Rondo has much as he's done this year. It's counter intuitive, but energy plays into it. Pierce for example, was often out of gas in 4th quarters of many of those games, so even with the intent of winning games it was hurting us.

But sorry, I meant March indeed... April just had a few games. ESPN's new game log format is idiotic.
BasketballReference ftw.

Rondo has played the same minutes for the past four years. I think he's a bit better he has to play a few less, but its what it is.

I just don't think 3 extra minutes per game for two months matters that much. If anything KG being out is what wore on the team, EVERYONE had to do more in the minutes they were out there. Not to mention that Powe/BBD/etc were all hurt and out leaving us with no size to boot.

Walker wasn't worth minutes in the rotation and Doc wasn't extending Pierce all that much beyond his normal range for that year. Really a non-issue.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 03:04:16 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

We could've lost all the games in that 40 minute month, and still make the playoffs as a 4th seed. It was completely unnecessary. It was unnecessary to play him that much to even win games, just like it's been unnecessary for Doc to play Rondo has much as he's done this year. It's counter intuitive, but energy plays into it. Pierce for example, was often out of gas in 4th quarters of many of those games, so even with the intent of winning games it was hurting us.

But sorry, I meant March indeed... April just had a few games. ESPN's new game log format is idiotic.
BasketballReference ftw.

Rondo has played the same minutes for the past four years. I think he's a bit better he has to play a few less, but its what it is.

I just don't think 3 extra minutes per game for two months matters that much. If anything KG being out is what wore on the team, EVERYONE had to do more in the minutes they were out there. Not to mention that Powe/BBD/etc were all hurt and out leaving us with no size to boot.

Walker wasn't worth minutes in the rotation and Doc wasn't extending Pierce all that much beyond his normal range for that year. Really a non-issue.

Yea, what really killed that team was the fact we had to lean on Mikki Moore for big minutes. *puke*

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 03:09:43 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

We could've lost all the games in that 40 minute month, and still make the playoffs as a 4th seed. It was completely unnecessary. It was unnecessary to play him that much to even win games, just like it's been unnecessary for Doc to play Rondo has much as he's done this year. It's counter intuitive, but energy plays into it. Pierce for example, was often out of gas in 4th quarters of many of those games, so even with the intent of winning games it was hurting us.

But sorry, I meant March indeed... April just had a few games. ESPN's new game log format is idiotic.
BasketballReference ftw.

Rondo has played the same minutes for the past four years. I think he's a bit better he has to play a few less, but its what it is.

I just don't think 3 extra minutes per game for two months matters that much. If anything KG being out is what wore on the team, EVERYONE had to do more in the minutes they were out there. Not to mention that Powe/BBD/etc were all hurt and out leaving us with no size to boot.

Walker wasn't worth minutes in the rotation and Doc wasn't extending Pierce all that much beyond his normal range for that year. Really a non-issue.

Yeah I just don't get the fascination of playingplayers just because they wear the uniform.

Again I think this is just nitpicking.

To say we would have gone further in the playoffs getting the 4th seed is a huge stretch.

Btw Rondo should be playing huge minutes

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 03:10:59 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

We could've lost all the games in that 40 minute month, and still make the playoffs as a 4th seed. It was completely unnecessary. It was unnecessary to play him that much to even win games, just like it's been unnecessary for Doc to play Rondo has much as he's done this year. It's counter intuitive, but energy plays into it. Pierce for example, was often out of gas in 4th quarters of many of those games, so even with the intent of winning games it was hurting us.

But sorry, I meant March indeed... April just had a few games. ESPN's new game log format is idiotic.
BasketballReference ftw.

Rondo has played the same minutes for the past four years. I think he's a bit better he has to play a few less, but its what it is.

I just don't think 3 extra minutes per game for two months matters that much. If anything KG being out is what wore on the team, EVERYONE had to do more in the minutes they were out there. Not to mention that Powe/BBD/etc were all hurt and out leaving us with no size to boot.

Walker wasn't worth minutes in the rotation and Doc wasn't extending Pierce all that much beyond his normal range for that year. Really a non-issue.

Which was disproved by the performance in the playoffs... really an issue. The Rondo comment was not about his energy per se, he's young and has good stamina, but about the idea that Doc needs to play him that much in order to win during the regular season.

Even with all those problems, we took the eventual East Champions to seven games.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 03:12:32 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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Moore had one good game that I recall (Magic game), beyond that he didnt' do much. Meanwhile he was a much worse defender than Dooling which is why Dooling got the nod.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with Pierce though. While I wasn't happy with the backup SF situation in 08-09 Doc didn't start riding Pierce till KG was hurt. At that point his minutes went to 40 MPG for Feb/March. In April he scaled them back down again as we were prepping for the playoffs.

We could've lost all the games in that 40 minute month, and still make the playoffs as a 4th seed. It was completely unnecessary. It was unnecessary to play him that much to even win games, just like it's been unnecessary for Doc to play Rondo has much as he's done this year. It's counter intuitive, but energy plays into it. Pierce for example, was often out of gas in 4th quarters of many of those games, so even with the intent of winning games it was hurting us.

But sorry, I meant March indeed... April just had a few games. ESPN's new game log format is idiotic.
BasketballReference ftw.

Rondo has played the same minutes for the past four years. I think he's a bit better he has to play a few less, but its what it is.

I just don't think 3 extra minutes per game for two months matters that much. If anything KG being out is what wore on the team, EVERYONE had to do more in the minutes they were out there. Not to mention that Powe/BBD/etc were all hurt and out leaving us with no size to boot.

Walker wasn't worth minutes in the rotation and Doc wasn't extending Pierce all that much beyond his normal range for that year. Really a non-issue.

Yeah I just don't get the fascination of playingplayers just because they wear the uniform.

Again I think this is just nitpicking.

To say we would have gone further in the playoffs getting the 4th seed is a huge stretch.

Btw Rondo should be playing huge minutes

How is it a huge stretch when you took the eventual East Champions to seven games? There were only 3 teams of worth that year, all with their flaws.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 03:17:29 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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What was disproved by Pierce's performance in the playoffs? Go look at the game logs and point out where Pierce was a different player than he was in the regular season?

He had a solid playoffs very similar to 2007-2008, if you want to talk about him being tired then you should play the Bulls/C's collectively for having so many OTs.

Pierce had a good series against the Bulls and was doing well against Orlando until game 6/7. You really think 3 MPG in Feb/March mattered more than big minutes in the two weeks before and multiple OT games?

Or the fact that Orlando got more locked in defensively when it became do or die for them? In the end its definitely micromanaging the team wanting to believe it was that close to the tipping point.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 03:22:01 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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What was disproved by Pierce's performance in the playoffs?

He had a solid playoffs, if you want to talk about him being tired then you should play the Bulls/C's collectively for having so many OTs.

Pierce had a good series against the Bulls and was doing well against Orlando until game 6/7. You really think 3 MPG in Feb/March mattered more than big minutes in the two weeks before and multiple OT games?

Or the fact that Orlando got more locked in defensively when it became do or die for them?

Yes it makes a difference, certainly not at the level of those OT games, but it does make a difference, particularly with Pierce who'd been battling some knee problems himself.

It all adds up, and it's disingenuous to believe that it doesn't make a difference. Hell, let's stop giving Pop that much credit for being a good coach for conserving his players throughout the year... it's a non-issue after all.

Fact is, regardless of what you feel the difference would be, it was completely unnecessary to play Pierce that much during the season, and a poor decision to do so. Even if Pierce didn't ran out of gas, it would still make it a poor decision, there was no need for it... that he did end up running out of gas, just adds circumstantial evidence my way at the very least.

Doc himself said throughout the season that he had play Pierce less, but for some reason he kept failing at it his promise.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:27:47 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2013, 03:28:02 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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it was completely unnecessary to play Pierce that much during the season, and a poor decision to do so.
Only if you don't value winning games, which you don't so that's where we are.

Doc was playing to win that year, he's since adjusted his handling of Pierce somewhat and especially KG as they've gotten even older.

You really think we go farther than we did in 2008-2009 if Pierce played 3 minutes less per game for two months? Doc did a magnificent coaching job that season to get where we did.

Re: Doc "not playing rookies"
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 03:30:46 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think Doc plays the guys he thinks will help the team win games.

I think he's poor at "force feeding" rookies minutes, although in fairness not a lot of young guys he sat have gone on to do anything elsewhere.


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