Author Topic: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue  (Read 8388 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OmarSekou

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 720
  • Tommy Points: 92
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2013, 10:50:58 AM »
Edit: Realized someone already made the point that Rondo's lack of FTAs probably has something to do with his bad FT% and confidence.

I agree with the OP that Rondo could have been working harder defensively this season and I hope AB being back will make him step up his effort.

One thing I'll say about Rondo's effort is that at full tempo his style of play is reckless, he's throwing his body around and putting himself in weird angles. It's easier to judge his effort level based on watching his play. I think a lot of other guys in the league coast, but it's not as obvious because their game looks pretty much the same regardless of effort.

Another thing is that no one is KG. He's a freak of nature, not the standard when it comes to effort and stamina. Same with Westbrook. Overall, Rondo is well above average when it comes to effort and stamina.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 11:07:47 AM by OmarSekou »

Offline tonyto3690

  • Brandon Bass
  • Posts: 440
  • Tommy Points: 39
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2013, 12:28:36 PM »
I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.

He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.

Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.

  Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.

  Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.

  Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.

  Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.

Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it.  We were on our heals and they attacked.

This nonsense that you need Wade, Lebron, Durant and Dwight alongside Rondo or he can't run the fast break is nonsense and just pure excuses to protect Rondo. 

In fact all I am hearing now is excuses for Rondo.  Rondo getting to the line would be bad for our offense now?  Really??  Even if Rondo isn't a great FT shooter, you're getting fouls on their bigmen which makes it easier for the rest of the time to drive.  On top of that you don't get better at something by not doing it ever.   And even more on top of that, getting FTA and a drawn foul is always better than a contested late shot clock fadaway jumper which is what happens most of the time Rondo walks the ball up and tries to orchestrate a play instead of taking the layup because the layup requires him to run.

Offline BballTim

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21102
  • Tommy Points: 943
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2013, 01:15:21 PM »
I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.

He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.

Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.

  Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.

  Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.

  Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.

  Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.

Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it.  We were on our heals and they attacked.

  Last night you saw the team that plays at the fastest pace in the league. We're not that team, whether you like it or not. News flash, not every team wants to play racehorse basketball. Look at the Spurs, for example. They push the ball whenever possible and play at almost the fastest pace in the league. 4-5 years ago (maybe even more recently) they were a grind it out team that played at close to the *slowest* pace in the league.

  What do you think changed? Do you think that, after 8+ years, Pop finally got through to Parker and the others and got them to play how he wanted them to since they were rookies? Obviously this isn't the case. He wants the team to push the pace more now. Doc runs the team, not Tommy, and I doubt he minds Rondo slowing down the game (when there's no good transition opportunity) as much as you do.

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11281
  • Tommy Points: 1085
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2013, 02:46:26 PM »
I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.

He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.

Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.

  Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.

  Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.

  Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.

  Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.

Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it.  We were on our heals and they attacked.

  Last night you saw the team that plays at the fastest pace in the league. We're not that team, whether you like it or not. News flash, not every team wants to play racehorse basketball. Look at the Spurs, for example. They push the ball whenever possible and play at almost the fastest pace in the league. 4-5 years ago (maybe even more recently) they were a grind it out team that played at close to the *slowest* pace in the league.

  What do you think changed? Do you think that, after 8+ years, Pop finally got through to Parker and the others and got them to play how he wanted them to since they were rookies? Obviously this isn't the case. He wants the team to push the pace more now. Doc runs the team, not Tommy, and I doubt he minds Rondo slowing down the game (when there's no good transition opportunity) as much as you do.

You do realize that Doc has been calling out Rondo to play with more speed, to push the pace, to stop walking the ball up, to remain aggressive for 6 years or so now right?

Offline BballTim

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21102
  • Tommy Points: 943
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2013, 03:03:50 PM »
I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.

He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.

Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.

  Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.

  Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.

  Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.

  Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.

Last night I saw suns players running the fast break 2 vs 5 or 1 vs 3 on multiple occasions and get easy layups and wide open 3 point shots because of it.  We were on our heals and they attacked.

  Last night you saw the team that plays at the fastest pace in the league. We're not that team, whether you like it or not. News flash, not every team wants to play racehorse basketball. Look at the Spurs, for example. They push the ball whenever possible and play at almost the fastest pace in the league. 4-5 years ago (maybe even more recently) they were a grind it out team that played at close to the *slowest* pace in the league.

  What do you think changed? Do you think that, after 8+ years, Pop finally got through to Parker and the others and got them to play how he wanted them to since they were rookies? Obviously this isn't the case. He wants the team to push the pace more now. Doc runs the team, not Tommy, and I doubt he minds Rondo slowing down the game (when there's no good transition opportunity) as much as you do.

You do realize that Doc has been calling out Rondo to play with more speed, to push the pace, to stop walking the ball up, to remain aggressive for 6 years or so now right?

  Sure, I'm aware that he comments on issues that crop up in Rondo's game on occasion. I would hope that you realize that if Doc said that Rondo needed to be more assertive on offense last January and says it again tomorrow that it doesn't mean that he's been unhappy with Rondo's aggressiveness for that entire year. You must have seen all of Doc's quotes last year about putting more of the offense in Rondo's hands and giving him more freedom on offense. Are you assuming that what Doc really meant was "I don't like the speed or pace that Rondo plays at and it bothers me that he slows the game down at times so I decided to give him more freedom and control to play how he wants (and I don't)"?

Offline wiley

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2290
  • Tommy Points: 155
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2013, 03:06:02 PM »
imo Rondo's effort level is a non-issue.  If you want to talk about mileage---has any player at this stage of his career played more minutes than Rondo? including high octane deep runs into the playoffs every year, than Rondo?----that is another story.

It's time to get Rondo a good backup pure PG who can split the minutes with him, an Andre Miller, Chauncey Billups, Jarret Jack, Jose Calderone.  I guess this year we'll fly with Jet, but ideally Jet would back up the 2 next to someone like Jarret Jack.  As Courtney Lee is doing well right now, just stand pat I guess.  But I generally agree with Doc when he says we need a backup PG.

Regarding playing fast or slow, we're going to need to be good at playing slow verses Miami's defense.  That's not a team we can run off the floor....here and there mabye but not continuosly.  If it happened I'd be thrilled, but with two old guys at starter minutes int the playoffs it won't be in the starter's repetoire...

Rondo should get some good rest before the playoffs so he can do his thing when we get there....

I know I know these guys aren't supposed to get tired. but they do and we've seen it more than once.


Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2458
  • Tommy Points: 361
Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2013, 03:22:07 PM »
imo Rondo's effort level is a non-issue.  If you want to talk about mileage---has any player at this stage of his career played more minutes than Rondo? including high octane deep runs into the playoffs every year, than Rondo?----that is another story.

It's time to get Rondo a good backup pure PG who can split the minutes with him, an Andre Miller, Chauncey Billups, Jarret Jack, Jose Calderone.  I guess this year we'll fly with Jet, but ideally Jet would back up the 2 next to someone like Jarret Jack.  As Courtney Lee is doing well right now, just stand pat I guess.  But I generally agree with Doc when he says we need a backup PG.

Regarding playing fast or slow, we're going to need to be good at playing slow verses Miami's defense.  That's not a team we can run off the floor....here and there mabye but not continuosly.  If it happened I'd be thrilled, but with two old guys at starter minutes int the playoffs it won't be in the starter's repetoire...

Rondo should get some good rest before the playoffs so he can do his thing when we get there....

I know I know these guys aren't supposed to get tired. but they do and we've seen it more than once.

LeBroid and KoMe (PP, Ray, KG... although RR plays more mins than they do regular season, at this point).
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)