Author Topic: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue  (Read 9176 times)

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2013, 06:18:02 PM »

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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)

His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)

Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)

He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.

TP.

Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.
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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2013, 06:25:12 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)

His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)

Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)

He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.

TP.

Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.

  Rondo getting to the line doesn't hurt the team, it just doesn't help the team as much as it could. he hits over 60% of them, our TS% is less than that.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2013, 06:52:28 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)

His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)

Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)

He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.

TP.

Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.

I don't think that Faf's point was that Rondo getting to the line hurts the team.  Even beyond the points it would get the offense, there's the fact that getting opposing players into foul trouble and getting the entire team into the bonus is a plus.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2013, 07:19:57 PM »

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Rondo ranks 27th among PGs who played 10 games and 15+ minutes per game in FTA/FGA ratio. Slightly below average for a PG overall at .230 (average is .237)

His And1 percentage is also pretty low. (actually tied with CP3 though, thought his would have been higher)

Rondo doesn't try to get to the line as much as other PGs, his poor free throw shooting is the reason in my opinion. (only two PGs who meet the criteria above shoot worse from the line than Rondo)

He's not terrible at drawing FTAs, but with his physical profile its something I feel he could do more.
We have a winner.

TP.

Rondo is smart enough to know where his weaknesses are and to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his team's chance of scoring he drives to the basket less and shoots less free throws because if he did it more he would be hurting the team. Better to create at the key or by dribble drive and dishing than going to the basket and picking up a foul and missing 45% of his free throws.

I don't think that Faf's point was that Rondo getting to the line hurts the team.  Even beyond the points it would get the offense, there's the fact that getting opposing players into foul trouble and getting the entire team into the bonus is a plus.
No it my point that his missing free throws hurts the team. Let's face it he's a bad free throw shooter.

The Celtics PPS this season, excluding Rondo, is above 1.2. That is almost exactly what Rondo would yield with 2 free throws.

But, Rondo also would take a beating driving more, he stands the chance of not getting the calls as he isn't exactly the most popular guy with a bunch of refs, he could pick up offensive fouls and put himself in foul trouble, and there's the chance he could go into one his prolonged shooting woes at the line which is prone to do.

Does this offset the advantages that possibly getting the other team in foul trouble? I think it does because, let's face it, the Celtics are a team of jump shooters. They very rarely take advantage of their opposition getting into foul trouble by going inside. So risking a Rondo injury or getting only as much points as the team would normally get by just not having Rondo get fouled while shooting, IMO isn't worth it.

If he was as good a free throw shooter as Westbrook or Jennings or Thomas or others, then yes, driving the lane and getting fouled would help his team. But given just how bad a free throw shooter he is, his rep with the refs, his team's penchant for never going inside when the opposition is in foul trouble and just how well his team scores as a normal function of offense, I think he hurts the team by driving to the basket and forcing the issue.

 

2015 CB HISTORICAL DRAFT: COMING THIS OCTOBER
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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2013, 07:23:01 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay.  I don't think that's how winners play basketball.  I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.

If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2013, 07:37:15 PM »

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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay.  I don't think that's how winners play basketball.  I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.

If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
No he doesn't drive the lane out of fear of getting hurt but because its not in his team's best interest to maximize their chance of scoring.

How you could take only that part out of what I said is astounding. That is just one part of the total reasoning and probably the smallest part of it.

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2013, 07:39:07 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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Only if Rondo played passive in the playoffs would I trade him over not attacking. I know people don't like to give him that pass, but I do. As long as he shows up when it matters.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2013, 07:41:31 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay.  I don't think that's how winners play basketball.  I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.

If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
No he doesn't drive the lane out of fear of getting hurt but because its not in his team's best interest to maximize their chance of scoring.

How you could take only that part out of what I said is astounding. That is just one part of the total reasoning and probably the smallest part of it.

I already gave my opinion to the rest of it.  I think it's beneficial for the team if Rondo is attacking. 


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2013, 07:46:46 PM »

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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay.  I don't think that's how winners play basketball.  I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.

If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.
No he doesn't drive the lane out of fear of getting hurt but because its not in his team's best interest to maximize their chance of scoring.

How you could take only that part out of what I said is astounding. That is just one part of the total reasoning and probably the smallest part of it.

I already gave my opinion to the rest of it.  I think it's beneficial for the team if Rondo is attacking.
We can agree to disagree with that.

A lot of people disagree with Doc's lack of focus on offensive rebounding. Hasn't seemed to effect just how great this team has performed over the last five years. There's very valid arguments for and against his philosophy but Doc makes that work.

I think the same is true for this argument. There's very valid arguments that Rondo driving the lane could help or hurt the team. We will never know until the opposite happens though.
2015 CB HISTORICAL DRAFT: COMING THIS OCTOBER
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3 players from 2001-Pres
1 player from any era

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2013, 08:14:27 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I guess the "don't drive the lane because you'll get hurt" mentality is here to stay.  I don't think that's how winners play basketball.  I can't think of another successful PG in history who declined to attack the basket due to fear of injury.

If Rondo really is playing scared, he needs to be traded.

  Rondo obviously does drive the lane. If you think that every point guard who does less than Rondo should get traded because they "play scared" then there's going to be a tremendously high amount of turnover. You might as well put the Celts down for CP3, he'd be my choice if we can't have Rondo.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2013, 08:20:30 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2013, 08:37:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2013, 08:54:06 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.

He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.

Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2013, 10:27:57 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I did find it interesting that Doc said that the 2nd unit is playing with better tempo than the starters, since one the PG's primary function is to create tempo.

  I'd guess he meant "at the moment", possibly because he's constantly shuffling the lineups, possibly because Bradley's been out of the lineup for so long, possibly because Rondo's just getting over the bruised hip. Like it or not, Rondo's among the best in the league at controlling the pace of the game.

I actually like the way we look when we push the ball up the floor, start our offense early in the shot clock, and work the ball around. The problem is that we aren't effective in doing the latter because Rondo is a liability when he's off the ball. I remember earlier in his career he used to roam the baseline, similar to Bradley, more on offense when we were running stuff for others. That Rondo pounding the ball, while others work off screens, stuff is simply maddening. It makes our offense too stale and much easier to defend.

He's held to a higher standard because we know what he's capable of on both ends of the floor. Getting lit up, more often than not, by inferior players just because you don't want to move your feet and rather poke the ball from behind is unacceptable.

Rondo is a great player, but he is not above reproach. And at the end of the day it's about the CELTICS and not about Rondo.

  Sure, it's about the Celts, but your "higher standard" should still be based on reality. Everyone likes the way we look when Rondo pushes the ball up. That's because he pushes the ball up whenever it's likely we'll gain an advantage by doing so. KG and PP (and sometimes others) aren't hustling up court and all 5 defenders are usually back when he walks the ball up court.

  Should Rondo run the ball up court so he can then wait for his teammates to follow him? Are we hoping to wear out KG and PP by having them sprint up court so we can get into our half court set 2 seconds earlier? I just don't see it, and I don't see the need to blame Rondo for not pushing the pace when none of his teammates are beating their defenders up the court.

  Aside: I don't think Rondo's job is to push the pace as fast as possible when 2 of our best offensive players are 35 or older.

  Lastly, it's not the case that Rondo gets "lit up, more often than not, by inferior players". Higher standards is one thing, hyperbolic assessments are something else.

Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2013, 11:06:04 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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I could see Rondo trying to push the pace only for it not to work with our starters, then I'd see the thread, "why is Rondo ignoring pp and kg?". Fans would talk about how he's not utilizing our two best weapons, trade him!

I'm fine with how Rondo plays

 

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