Author Topic: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue  (Read 8457 times)

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Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2013, 09:53:35 AM »
I think this thread is very confusing to a lot of you. The Op is simply stating Rondo is too inconsistent how he plays the game, not inconsistent on how he put up numbers. Stats are so misleading. I have said that many times. We think just because Rondo Puts up 16-15-20 he had a good game. Statistcally yes he did, but what happened during the time achieving such #'s really is the true matter.

You could make the perfect argument for Kobe this year. He's putting up great statistcal #'s but yet his team still struggles to play with consistency & chemistry to win games.

The biggest difference I see with Rondo playing opposed to not playing is "SPEED". The Celtics offensively & defensively become suddenly much faster. Reason for this is, there is no designated distributor on the floor to look for after rebounding or broken plays. They get into sets much quicker, to be honest I think they run only 3 plays when Rondo is not playing. To me that is keeping the game simple & it makes the players comfortable. When Rondo is playing to many plays are ran, & most of the players look confused, so then it take too much time to execute, resulting in a bad possession. This happens constantly, way too often.

In the Knicks game & even previous Rondoless games we have seen how different, comfortable & more to life the complimentary players become. Rondo is great, but we don't need his services if he's not going to keep it simple.

   Not surprisingly, the team plays at a faster pace when Rondo's in the game than when he's on the bench. The thread's not that confusing. People read/hear things about Rondo, watch the game looking for those things, see them happen at times and assume that they're true. Unfortunately, the numbers don't necessarily bear out the claims.

I absolutely disagree with the OP that our "biggest issue" has anything to do with Rondo.

However, our team looks night and day different when Rondo is playing aggressively versus when he's not.  It's very frustrating to watch as a fan, because sometimes Rondo essentially holds the ball around the perimeter for games at a time.  That seems to bog down our offense, as opposed to when Rondo is actively attacking and making things happen.  It's been an issue for years.

Of course, all players go through games where they're less aggressive, but it's a lot more noticeable with Rondo, who (1) has the capability to attack, and (2) is the most important part of our offense.

  While it's true that all players (including Rondo) and all teams go through times when they're less aggressive, I still say that when some of the other players (or the team as a whole) are going through less aggressive stretches it's generally classified as Rondo not being aggressive.
Offensively, I agree with this 100%. I can't even count high enough to count the amount of trips down the floor that I have seen:

1.) Rondo run a one man break and have to pull up because of the defense and wait for everyone to get up the floor to run a set play. This usually has Rondo bringing the ball back out and dribbling waiting for an open man to pass to. But this is perceived as Rondo passivity.

2.) Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball with absolutely zero off the ball movement by anyone else on the court in green. If the other players aren't going to move how is that Rondo's fault for dribbling at the top of the key?

3. Rondo handling the ball at the top of the key waiting to pass the ball to only one man running through various screens attempting to get himself open and if he doesn't, just continuing to run through more screens until he is open or Rondo has to junk the play and do something.

Offensively, Rondo gets way to much blame for the whole team's lack of energy or poor play development simply because he has the ball in his hands. If Pierce brought the ball up, initiated the offense, had no one moving around looking to get open and then after 15 seconds Pierce went iso, this blog would be going crazy complaining about Pierce's ball hogging and love of an iso play instead of the fact his team mates aren't creating anything by moving off the ball.

Defensively, and remember I love Rondo and am probably one of his biggest fans here, but he does get very passive sometimes and gambles way too much. I give him a pass because he expends so much energy rebounding defensively, running the ball up the court and running the offense. So if he slacks off at times defensively, during the regular season, I don't care.

1. And what's the problem with that? If Rondo is on the break, he is usually the guy closest to our basket to begin with, and he's the fastest on our team. I don't see a problem with that. I see no problem with him pushing the ball and not finding anything, at worst, we get an early start to our offense. This excuse doesn't fly. Also, more often than not, he has an open man waiting at the 3-point land, he very rarely gives that pass, holds the ball waiting to see if someone catches up, if no one arrives he then brings the ball back when we had a wide-open shot available all along. Sometimes it works because it leads to an easy basket, but we lose a lot of good opportunities also.


2. You do realize that Rondo is calling the plays right? Often redirecting traffic, which is fine... until you realize he's spent 5 seconds doing so, then add the 8 seconds he spends walking the ball up the floor which leads to poor possessions.

3. An extension of #2, if the play isn't there, he needs to make a quicker decision to go for a different option.

But don't take my word for it, take Doc's who's made similar complaints about Rondo himself, and I know you have very high regard to Doc's opinion.

The blame is more than adequate, he rarely uses his speed, and walking the ball up the floor with little ball movement will always be a recipe for disaster.

I don't know why it took Terry to get on the floor against the Suns for us to finally push the ball, and run a simple pick that lead into a Terry penetration for a good layup... something that Rondo should be a master in, but rarely goes for it.

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2013, 10:01:23 AM »
ROndo's lax momnets of passiveness, holding the ball dribbling away the secs, walking the ballup court , letting the defense get set...basically not moving the offensive , standing around with his finger in his ear., waitng for something ...a bad telegraphed pass is the result or a turnover.  LAZY play is what it is. Unless he is Hurt..then he should sit.

this type of play is what leads to the inconsistent play .

Rondo is liability when he is standing around , not moving the offense... ::)

I would rather have Barbosa/Lee  in there , if ROndo 's brain is wired for agressive play on those 50 -50 nights when your not sure which Rono is gonna show up.

He'll make a spectaular play , then not move the ball for 7 minute and throw it away 3 times .

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2013, 10:07:19 AM »
Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?

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Offline RyNye

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2013, 10:10:35 AM »
ROndo's lax momnets of passiveness, holding the ball dribbling away the secs, walking the ballup court , letting the defense get set...basically not moving the offensive , standing around with his finger in his ear., waitng for something ...a bad telegraphed pass is the result or a turnover.  LAZY play is what it is. Unless he is Hurt..then he should sit.

this type of play is what leads to the inconsistent play .

Rondo is liability when he is standing around , not moving the offense... ::)

I would rather have Barbosa/Lee  in there , if ROndo 's brain is wired for agressive play on those 50 -50 nights when your not sure which Rono is gonna show up.

He'll make a spectaular play , then not move the ball for 7 minute and throw it away 3 times .

People always complain about this, but how often does it actually happen? Has anyone ever tried to count how many times in a game Rondo actually does this?

I don't deny that it happens, but it really doesn't happen all that often (and it's not like we are the only offense that has bad/lazy execution at times).

People like to waive away numbers claiming they don't tell the whole story, but the eye test is not reliable or consistent enough. It is too subjective, and the nature of our attention/memory is to focus on the extraordinary. That is, a really good play or a really bad one, ignoring all of the stuff that happens in between. Out of an average NBA game, there are only going to be around ~6-10 plays that most of us will remember afterwords, and they are going to either be highlight reel worthy greatness or something that p---ed us off.

It doesn't matter if there were 30 solid offensive possessions in the game, so long as there were 3 really bad ones, because those 3 are going to the be the ones you remember.

Unless somebody can actually prove with a count how many times Rondo "wastes" an offensive possession in a game, whether through laziness or lack of aggression or sloppiness or whatever, and that he does this more than most star players, then you literally have no argument!

Offline ScottHow

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2013, 10:17:49 AM »
I want to make a point about Rondo's apparent lack of defensive effort;  I think a big thing is that his on ball defense is being compared to Avery Bradley's.  I have to say that I literally don't think there's another point guard in the league who pressures the ball handler and fights through screens like Avery Bradley.  There certainly aren't any other elite level offensive point guards who do--not Chris Paul, not Russell Westbrook, not Tony Parker, not Derrick Rose, not Kyrie Irving, not Steph Curry . . .

I submit that not only is Rondo actually a superior on ball defender to those other guys listed, but he's also more disruptive off the ball than any of those players (I might put Paul and Westbrook close to in Rondo's class). 

Back to Bradley, it's what is so impressive about his D.  That kind of ball pressure is simply not something we are used to seeing in an NBA basketball game.  When he is playing next to Rondo, the automatic reaction is; "look how lazy Rondo is.  He doesn't play defense like Bradley."  But, nobody else in the league plays defense like Bradley.

Rondo's a great defender, and having Avery back makes him even better.  It allows him to do more of the things defensively that he excels at like jumping passing lanes and helping and trapping without having to be the guy who is guarding the ball and fighting off bone crushing screens all game.

I agree that Rondo gets unfairly compared to Bradley. AB puts everyone to shame.

Offline Bosstown

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2013, 10:27:21 AM »
Can you guys please calm down with the consistent effort talk? this kid has literally bled, played through injuries, dislocated his arm for us, and he has played fantastic in the playoffs. when it counts rajon comes through and plays his heart out. PERIOD. the regular season is only the regular season.

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2013, 10:31:43 AM »
My question to those who are unhappy with Rondo, and more specifically his inconsistent level of play is quite simple.

Do you realize if Rondo played the way many want, on a night-in-night-out basis, he would likely miss numerous games due to injury?

I would like him to be able to better adapt his style of play to more of a "just anther cog in the wheel" style when he is not going full-out, but have little problem with him coasting at times.  Rondo is a slightly built guy, we don't need him being a hero every night.  Unless we want a DRose situation.
that's because he doesn't play that smartly.  Plenty of small guys give maximum effort and don't miss game after game, including some players that are very very good (like Rondo is).
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Offline No Nickname

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2013, 10:36:19 AM »
8 and 8 from Rondo was still an ESPN highlight.

just saying...

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but is this supposed to be an argument for Rondo playing up to his capabilities?

Ignoring the offensive end for the moment, my biggest gripe is Rondo's defense when he's not guarding a premiere player like LeBron, or Chris Paul, or Deron Williams.  When he plays the rest of the league, watch him on defense.

He'll stand in the middle of the lane at times and just point at his man who is spotting up for a wide-open three and yell "Switch! Switch!" at his teammates.

Or a shot will go up and if he doesn't feel like rebounding (which he's incredible at) he'll just turn and watch the play while his man runs unimpeded to the basket for an offensive rebound. 

He also has a bad habit of not fighting through picks.  He'll run into the pick and give one of those fake foul reactions where he'll throw his arms up.  The refs usually don't call it and his man just goes to the basket.

Don't get me wrong, when he's motivated, he can play great defense.  But he gives the impression that if he's guarding a Ramon Sessions type that he feels it's beneath him to actually play the right way.

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2013, 10:44:13 AM »
Can you guys please calm down with the consistent effort talk? this kid has literally bled, played through injuries, dislocated his arm for us, and he has played fantastic in the playoffs. when it counts rajon comes through and plays his heart out. PERIOD. the regular season is only the regular season.

I'm as hard on Rondo as anyone here, and I was very supportive of Rondo's play during the playoffs, hell I was quite supportive of Rondo at the start of the season, but even during those times, some of these problems crept up, and it happens during the most inopportune times, like the 4th quarter of games. That said, he also balanced it out with some really spectacular 4th quarter performances in the playoffs.

But it's a problem, and it's a problem that I see as very easily fixable from by his part, which makes it that much more frustrating when they occur.

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2013, 10:48:09 AM »
Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?

  He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.


 Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2013, 10:52:18 AM »
I expect a lot more production out of him as we get closer to the playoffs. I think his second half will be much better then his first half.

And that makes us scary in my opinion.

Please just stay healthy.

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »
Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?

  He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.


 Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.

There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo.  I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2013, 11:10:04 AM »
Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?

  He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.


 Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.

There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo.  I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.


  How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2013, 11:20:15 AM »
Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?

  He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.


 Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.

There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo.  I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.


  How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?

Lots of point guards get to the paint and absorb contact.  Rondo ranks 2nd among PGs in rebounds, but only 29th in free throw attempts.  (One of the fastest and most skilled PGs in the league ranks near the bottom of all starters in FTAs.  That just shouldn't happen, regardless of excuse.)

A guy like Russell Westbrook grabs more boards than Rondo, and has gotten to the line over three times more than he has.  He's got two inches and 15 pounds on Rondo. 

A guy like Brandon Jennings is actually smaller than Rondo, and has gotten to the line twice as much.  Isaiah Thomas is 5'9", and he gets to the line more than Rondo; Nate Robinson gets there almost as much.

The excuse "small guys can't attack the hoop or they will get injured" doesn't make any sense, because lots of small guys are driving the lane and are doing it just fine.

As an aside, where are you getting that Rondo takes 7 or 8 shot attempts at the rim per game?  He's got 121 FGAs at the rim this season, which is about 4 per game.  Add in his FTAs, and let's say he's attempting those shots about 5 times per game.  Westbrook is getting around 6 shots at the rim, and is averaging 6 FTAs.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:26:49 AM by Roy H. »

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Re: Rondo's lack of consistent effort is our biggest issue
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2013, 11:25:46 AM »
Are people seriously arguing "Rondo's a little guy, so it's okay if he coasts"?

  He never coasts to the extent that people are claiming, but he gets to the rim more often and rebounds more in the playoffs. I don't mind him doing less of that during the season as (since he actually is a little guy) the wear and tear that comes with his playoff style of play will make him more injury prone. Playoffs are relatively short and he's been there for 5 years and this was the first year he made it through the playoffs without his play being hampered by injuries he picked up during the playoffs.


 Also note that in 2010 we went all the way to the finals and he spent much of the offseason with team USA and the next year was by far the least healthy of his career. I don't think it was a coincidence.

There are literally dozens of point guards who are about Rondo's size, many of whom get to the line much more than Rondo.  I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever.


  How many of them get 7 rebounds a game? How many of them take the 7-8 shots a game at the rim that Rondo does? And what does "I just don't buy it as a valid reason whatsoever" signify? That it's coincidental that he gets more banged up when he plays with abandon? That he doesn't really pick up those knocks in the playoffs?

Lots of point guards get to the paint and absorb contact.  Rondo ranks 2nd among PGs in rebounds, but only 29th in free throw attempts. 

A guy like Russell Westbrook grabs more boards than Rondo, and has gotten to the line over three times more than he has.  He's got two inches and 15 pounds on Rondo. 

A guy like Brandon Jennings is actually smaller than Rondo, and has gotten to the line twice as much.  Isaiah Thomas is 5'9", and he gets to the line more than Rondo; Nate Robinson gets there almost as much.

The excuse "small guys can't attack the hoop or they will get injured" doesn't make any sense, because lots of small guys are driving the lane and are doing it just fine.

  Again, how many of those guys get 7-8 rebounds a game and take 7-8 shots a game at the rim?

 

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