Author Topic: U see how much better without rondo today  (Read 6390 times)

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Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2013, 11:28:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Some people just can't take criticism towards a player they like.

 You mean Avery Bradley?

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2013, 11:37:12 PM »

Offline danglertx

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The whole first unit played badly?  Bradley was great.  KG was his usual great.  Pierce was a little down.  Bass wasn't good at all and neither was Rondo.

I get how people can say, "hey wait until Rondo turns it on in the playoffs," but can you ever see Garnet taking off regular season games?  Is playing hard really too much to ask for from Rondo?

Last week against Memphis,  KG went 5 of 14 from the field and 2 of 5 from the free throw line in a game we lost - no one accused him of taking that game off. There's been more than a few games where Paul has done nothing but jack up threes and he's never accused of taking games off. Rondo gets nitpicked by a different standard.

I think that is because Garnet never takes a night off defensively.  Guys miss shots, it happens, but turnovers and getting beat repeatedly on defense is another thing. 

It isn't even that Rondo gets beaten defensively that annoys me sometimes, it is that he just stands there afterwards.  And his walking the ball up the court is annoying, push it and if nothing is there then pull it out and run a play.  When you stop pushing the ball up the floor the other team starts hanging around for offensive rebounds.  If you consistently push they automatically start to fall back, or as I call it, the Celtic transition.

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2013, 11:43:20 PM »

Offline wahz

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except for maybe bradley(he really went on a tear offensively/defensively in the 2nd quarter) I thought the whole starting unit looked mediocre

but THAT is why danny constructed this bench...so the starters can have nights like this and the team can still grind out wins.

last year we wouldve killed to have just 1 player on the bench score in double digits....tonight we had 3..

We might have lost this game last season! Our bench was terrible.

if they logged a ton of minutes, I think a KG, Sullinger, Green, Terry, Bradley lineup might be our best. KG, Sully, Green up front have been great and with Avery back, that Avery, Terry backcourt is solid

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2013, 12:00:45 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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And some criticize towards a player they dont like just because

thats the nature of a place like this
somehow...

Who here seriously doesn't like Rondo? 

We are Celtics fans, that's why we are here.  90% of us like Rondo, in fact 90% of us love Rondo. 

We just get incredibly frustrated by the fact that he is such a "love / hate" player as a fan because his effort is either 150% or else it's 0%.

When Rondo plays like he's interested he is easilly a top 10 player in this league, and he's borderline unstoppable.  When he plays like he's not interested he's as good as useless, and just about any decent PG would do a better job.  The problem is that it seems like for every interested game, there are 2 or 3 uninterested ones.

That's the problem - that's why people get frustrated.  You never know what you will get from him, you can't depend on him as a leader because you never know which Rondo is going to show up.

Sometimes I feel like I'd rather have somebody who is less talented but gives consistent effort on a nightly basis.  Someone like KG or Avery Bradley could shoot 9-12 or 1-12 and you don't care either way, becuase you know that every single night their defense and effort are going to be there, and you know you can depend on that.

As for the "turns it on in the playoffs" argument, well that's all pretty useless if we don't MAKE it to the playoffs, isn't it?  Up until Bradley's return we were out of the top 8 and on target to not make the playoffs, yet Rondo didn't suddenly turn it up and play with a sense of urgency.  He kept playing 60% of the time like he wasn't interested.

Bradley comes back and now everyone is playing with more effort, and we win 4 games out of 5 - THAT is a leader's mentality.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/on-off/2013/

Taking a look at the on/off stats its funny. We're better in every offensive category with Rondo on the court than off except rebounding, specifically offensive rebounding.

Yeah, and last time I checked those numbers for Rondo it revealed something very interesting.  Our offense rating with Rondo on the court was barely above the team average, yet our offensive rating with him off the court was far below team average.

That suggests to me that it's not Rondo's offensive brilliance that helps us, it's the lack of a proper (and productive) backup PG that hurts us.  If we traded Rondo for a good PG and a decent big I'd bet we woudl be at least as good (if not better) after the trade as we are now.

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2013, 12:49:27 AM »

Offline ejk3489

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Quote
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/on-off/2013/

Taking a look at the on/off stats its funny. We're better in every offensive category with Rondo on the court than off except rebounding, specifically offensive rebounding.

Yeah, and last time I checked those numbers for Rondo it revealed something very interesting.  Our offense rating with Rondo on the court was barely above the team average, yet our offensive rating with him off the court was far below team average.

That suggests to me that it's not Rondo's offensive brilliance that helps us, it's the lack of a proper (and productive) backup PG that hurts us.  If we traded Rondo for a good PG and a decent big I'd bet we woudl be at least as good (if not better) after the trade as we are now.

So your reasoning for our above average offense with Rondo on the court versus a below average offense without him is that we have a hole at the back up point guard spot, and your solution is to...trade Rondo for another PG?

Wouldn't it make more sense to just get a capable back-up PG instead, if your theory is true?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 03:19:54 AM by ejk3489 »

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2013, 12:55:01 AM »

Online Fafnir

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Yeah, and last time I checked those numbers for Rondo it revealed something very interesting.  Our offense rating with Rondo on the court was barely above the team average, yet our offensive rating with him off the court was far below team average.

That suggests to me that it's not Rondo's offensive brilliance that helps us, it's the lack of a proper (and productive) backup PG that hurts us.  If we traded Rondo for a good PG and a decent big I'd bet we woudl be at least as good (if not better) after the trade as we are now.
Well given that he plays for over 3/4 of the game isn't that what you'd expect from a good offensive player?

Kevin Durant's on/off is +2 points better on ORTG for the thunder at 115 (team average is 113) meanwhile when he's off the court its 104.

He's played 82% of the minutes for the Thunder.

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2013, 04:23:49 AM »

Offline Galeto

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Some people just can't take criticism towards a player they like.

And some criticize towards a player they dont like just because

thats the nature of a place like this
somehow...  8)

Except the OP clearly likes and respects rondos game. And except 95percent of celtics fans like rondo. Difference is some of us criticise him when he deserves it while others don't.
People have different opinions on things.

For example people blame Rondo for walking the ball up, the Rondo I see screams for the ball and tries to run more often than not. Overall the C's are very aggressive in transition and semi-transition. We're just not built to run.

Just differences of opinion based on watching the same season of the same player.

Really?  I'm floored you think this way.  Nobody slow walks it up the court like Rondo does.  Nobody.  It annoys me to no end.  It reeks of a power play.  After a made basket, all his teammates at least jog up the court but Rondo trails behind and dribbles the ball up like a 85 year old making everyone wait for him.  It happens all the freaking time. 

And with Rondo at the helm, the Celtics have to be the worst or near the worst secondary transition team in the league.  He almost never passes the ball up ahead.  The guy dribbles the ball more than anybody in the league.  It drives me batty.  Even if a teammate isn't wide-open up ahead, just passing him the ball makes the defense react and can create openings off that.  This almost never happens. Rondo doesn't allow it.  When he's out of the lineup, things like Barbosa, Barbosa of all people, passing to Green for layups against the Knicks happen.  If Rondo played, that would not have happened. 

It's a weird disconnect.  Rondo is a great athlete, tremendously fast, one of the best transition finishers in the league but he loves to play halfcourt, he loves to call set plays and dominate the middle of the halfcourt and play off picks.  The guy is almost the Iverson of point guards but instead of shots, it's all dribble and ball possession.

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2013, 04:32:51 AM »

Offline Galeto

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The whole first unit played badly?  Bradley was great.  KG was his usual great.  Pierce was a little down.  Bass wasn't good at all and neither was Rondo.

I get how people can say, "hey wait until Rondo turns it on in the playoffs," but can you ever see Garnet taking off regular season games?  Is playing hard really too much to ask for from Rondo?

Last week against Memphis,  KG went 5 of 14 from the field and 2 of 5 from the free throw line in a game we lost - no one accused him of taking that game off. There's been more than a few games where Paul has done nothing but jack up threes and he's never accused of taking games off. Rondo gets nitpicked by a different standard.

I think that is because Garnet never takes a night off defensively.  Guys miss shots, it happens, but turnovers and getting beat repeatedly on defense is another thing. 

It isn't even that Rondo gets beaten defensively that annoys me sometimes, it is that he just stands there afterwards.  And his walking the ball up the court is annoying, push it and if nothing is there then pull it out and run a play.  When you stop pushing the ball up the floor the other team starts hanging around for offensive rebounds.  If you consistently push they automatically start to fall back, or as I call it, the Celtic transition.

I'm am so with you here.  Why can't Rondo pass the ball up ahead and let his teammates at least probe out early offense.  If nothing materializes because the defense gets set up quickly, fine, Rondo can get the ball back and call the set plays he loves to run.  But not even looking for the opportunity?  It's inexplicable. 

Rondo can pass the ball up ahead just fine.  After his two game suspension, he spent the whole first quarter in his first game back passing the ball up ahead and pushing the pace by PASSING, not DRIBBLING.  I was giddy.  I thought Rondo had had a breakthrough, an epiphany watching his teammates while he was out.  Alas, it lasted only a quarter.  I guess maybe he just didn't enjoy playing that way.  He reverted back to hogging the ball.


Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2013, 05:46:21 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Some people just can't take criticism towards a player they like.

 You mean Avery Bradley?

I mean any player that deserves criticism.

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2013, 05:49:04 AM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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And some criticize towards a player they dont like just because

thats the nature of a place like this
somehow...

Who here seriously doesn't like Rondo? 

We are Celtics fans, that's why we are here.  90% of us like Rondo, in fact 90% of us love Rondo. 

We just get incredibly frustrated by the fact that he is such a "love / hate" player as a fan because his effort is either 150% or else it's 0%.

When Rondo plays like he's interested he is easilly a top 10 player in this league, and he's borderline unstoppable.  When he plays like he's not interested he's as good as useless, and just about any decent PG would do a better job.  The problem is that it seems like for every interested game, there are 2 or 3 uninterested ones.

That's the problem - that's why people get frustrated.  You never know what you will get from him, you can't depend on him as a leader because you never know which Rondo is going to show up.

Sometimes I feel like I'd rather have somebody who is less talented but gives consistent effort on a nightly basis.  Someone like KG or Avery Bradley could shoot 9-12 or 1-12 and you don't care either way, becuase you know that every single night their defense and effort are going to be there, and you know you can depend on that.

As for the "turns it on in the playoffs" argument, well that's all pretty useless if we don't MAKE it to the playoffs, isn't it?  Up until Bradley's return we were out of the top 8 and on target to not make the playoffs, yet Rondo didn't suddenly turn it up and play with a sense of urgency.  He kept playing 60% of the time like he wasn't interested.

Bradley comes back and now everyone is playing with more effort, and we win 4 games out of 5 - THAT is a leader's mentality.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/on-off/2013/

Taking a look at the on/off stats its funny. We're better in every offensive category with Rondo on the court than off except rebounding, specifically offensive rebounding.

Yeah, and last time I checked those numbers for Rondo it revealed something very interesting.  Our offense rating with Rondo on the court was barely above the team average, yet our offensive rating with him off the court was far below team average.

That suggests to me that it's not Rondo's offensive brilliance that helps us, it's the lack of a proper (and productive) backup PG that hurts us.  If we traded Rondo for a good PG and a decent big I'd bet we woudl be at least as good (if not better) after the trade as we are now.
Guys he has been pretty inconsistent lately but was he ever accused of taking games off during his 34 game assist streak? How does 5 games offset all the others?

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2013, 05:51:36 AM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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And some criticize towards a player they dont like just because

thats the nature of a place like this
somehow...

Who here seriously doesn't like Rondo? 

We are Celtics fans, that's why we are here.  90% of us like Rondo, in fact 90% of us love Rondo. 

We just get incredibly frustrated by the fact that he is such a "love / hate" player as a fan because his effort is either 150% or else it's 0%.

When Rondo plays like he's interested he is easilly a top 10 player in this league, and he's borderline unstoppable.  When he plays like he's not interested he's as good as useless, and just about any decent PG would do a better job.  The problem is that it seems like for every interested game, there are 2 or 3 uninterested ones.

That's the problem - that's why people get frustrated.  You never know what you will get from him, you can't depend on him as a leader because you never know which Rondo is going to show up.

Sometimes I feel like I'd rather have somebody who is less talented but gives consistent effort on a nightly basis.  Someone like KG or Avery Bradley could shoot 9-12 or 1-12 and you don't care either way, becuase you know that every single night their defense and effort are going to be there, and you know you can depend on that.

As for the "turns it on in the playoffs" argument, well that's all pretty useless if we don't MAKE it to the playoffs, isn't it?  Up until Bradley's return we were out of the top 8 and on target to not make the playoffs, yet Rondo didn't suddenly turn it up and play with a sense of urgency.  He kept playing 60% of the time like he wasn't interested.

Bradley comes back and now everyone is playing with more effort, and we win 4 games out of 5 - THAT is a leader's mentality.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/on-off/2013/

Taking a look at the on/off stats its funny. We're better in every offensive category with Rondo on the court than off except rebounding, specifically offensive rebounding.

Yeah, and last time I checked those numbers for Rondo it revealed something very interesting.  Our offense rating with Rondo on the court was barely above the team average, yet our offensive rating with him off the court was far below team average.

That suggests to me that it's not Rondo's offensive brilliance that helps us, it's the lack of a proper (and productive) backup PG that hurts us.  If we traded Rondo for a good PG and a decent big I'd bet we woudl be at least as good (if not better) after the trade as we are now.
edit inappropriate edit

WHAT A PLAYER HAS DONE IN THEIR ENTIRE CAREER IS NOT OFFSET BY 5 GAMES. HE HAD A TRIPLE DOUBLE 2 GAMES AGO.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 07:23:23 AM by Fafnir »

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2013, 06:04:30 AM »

Offline alley oop

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The half court offense was clearly not good tonight when Rondo was in the game.
Even KG played better point tonight. Just callin it as I saw it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:51:35 AM by alley oop »

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2013, 06:08:10 AM »

Offline alajet

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The constant effort to label Rondo as a superstar ends up derailing the expectations. To me, he isn't a superstar. If he were to be called one, teams would be willing to make trades for him when Ainge was apparently shopping him and also, your GM wouldn't be shopping him in the first place.

That said, he's clearly a much better PG than we could ever get if we were to replace him via trade at this point. I don't really care if he is Top 3, Top 5 or Top 10 in his position. What really matters is he isn't beyond that number and that's more than enough.
 

Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2013, 06:11:44 AM »

Offline j804

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The half court offense was clearly not good tonight when Rondo was in the game.
KG played better point tonight. Just callin it as I saw it.
KG and Paul in the Knicks game with just pick and roll was unstoppable.


Re: U see how much better without rondo today
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2013, 07:17:01 AM »

Online Fafnir

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The Celtics have had 501 transition offensive plays, Rondo has been made a FGA or TO in 101 of them. I can't find data on how many transition assists he has, but I'd guess its an awful lot as his TOs are high in transition.

The Celtics score middle (15th) of the pack percentage of their points in transition and have a bad PPP or efficiency in the low 20s in transition.

I agree Rondo doesn't run off made baskets or play a very fast paced game, but he's not the king of walking the ball up. Off misses he probes the defense in transition and semi-transition a lot.

 

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