Author Topic: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?  (Read 6036 times)

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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2013, 12:17:50 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Now the 4 is another matter because Bass and Sully have shown that they can't play together, so if you can turn Bass into a big who can play with Sully, KG, and Wilcox, then the better.

Is the need for an upgrade on Bass or is the need for an upgrade on Wilcox/Collins so that Bass and Sullinger split time at the 4 and you get a big who can play with them when KG is resting?

Given how someone like Greg Smith has turned out for Houston, perhaps another D-Leaguer like Brian Butch or Henry Sims might be as good or better than a minimum salary veteran big.
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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2013, 12:21:18 AM »

Offline ejk3489

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maybe its me, but I feel like the Heat have regressed this year, at least defensively(part of that is they play small/ Miller, Ray are sieves)...the Knicks KILLED them the two times they played.

I really don't see any team as "unbeatable" in the East...but thats just me.

I agree, I'm much more afraid of the teams out West (Clippers/OKC) than I am of Miami. I think the quality of championship contender teams in our conference this season is pretty weak too...at the very least they aren't any better. Of the playoff teams last season, only New York has significantly improved. Atlanta/Indiana/Chicago(without Rose) are the same and Orlando/Philly are worse.

I think a trade would be helpful, especially for a center/big man, but not necessary. Our playoff rotation that almost went to the Finals and beat the Heat was essentially our starting 5 of Rondo/KG/Pierce/Allen/Bass and only two bench players in Pietrus/Dooling, with occasional contributions from Marquis and Stiemsma. No Bradley, no Green, no Wilcox. That's pretty awful.

Our current rotation of Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Sully/KG with Terry/Lee/Green/Bass off the bench *should* be able to at least compete with Miami...on paper anyways.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:27:51 AM by ejk3489 »

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2013, 12:21:48 AM »

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Now the 4 is another matter because Bass and Sully have shown that they can't play together, so if you can turn Bass into a big who can play with Sully, KG, and Wilcox, then the better.

Is the need for an upgrade on Bass or is the need for an upgrade on Wilcox/Collins so that Bass and Sullinger split time at the 4 and you get a big who can play with them when KG is resting?

Given how someone like Greg Smith has turned out for Houston, perhaps another D-Leaguer like Brian Butch or Henry Sims might be as good or better than a minimum salary veteran big.

I hear Fab Melo is beasting in the Dleague. Maybe Celtics can offer 10day deal and see what he can do.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2013, 12:28:15 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Why I want a trade: We're 18-17, two of our top 3 players are likely gone next year, and we have redundancies at the 2 and 4, and big holes at the 1 and 5.

The trade I want is to turn some of those redundancies into strengths and turn our squad into a more balanced team, specifically by acquiring a competent veteran backup point and starting caliber 5.

Our guard rotation is perfect as is, don't touch it. Our "hole" at the one has been completely overstated, as has been the redundancy at the 2.

Now the 4 is another matter because Bass and Sully have shown that they can't play together, so if you can turn Bass into a big who can play with Sully, KG, and Wilcox, then the better.

It will just improves just about everyone in our big-men rotation.

But as for our guards, Lee plays well with Bradley, and plays well with Terry. When Bradley is off the floor, he picks up the defensive slack. There's really little redundancy there, all of them are more than capable ball-handlers, as it's been shown time and time again throughout the season. Then you have Barbosa eating the bench, who's also more than capable of delivering when needed as a PG.

So no, we don't need a back-up PG. Our guards are fine as is. The only combination I'm iffy about is Terry with Rondo, but it seems like they've been figuring it out a bit better as of late.

I disagree, and so does Doc. We have 4 guys who merit 30 minutes a night for 96 minutes of play, and of the 4, Rondo is the only traditional pass-first capable player.

We're just getting by right now, I think we can do better.

So what you're saying is that we have very good players, and good depth. Four players for 2 positions. Sounds about right, plus a fifth in Barbosa. "Pass-first" is overrated. Everyone on our team, but maybe Bass and Barbosa, are very willing passers. So no worries on that regard. Our team is littered with ball-handlers in multiple positions, we're fine.

I'm saying we have 4 good players for two positions, Id rather have 3 and improve our frountcourt, and get a veteran backup 1 as a 9th or 10th man.

I want our roster to look like this:

Rondo/Terry/?
Bradley/Terry/Barbosa
Pierce/Green
Sullinger/KG/Wilcox
KG/Starting caliber 5/Wilcox

I think a trimmed down consistent rotation with the new big getting about 25 minutes a night makes us a better, more consistent team.

I don't think that makes us any better, you're hurting our perimeter defense too much, all for a potential "PG". A PG who has to have size if you're going to keep Terry around, else, we're going to be destroyed. What happens if Bradley gets injured? Then you're double screwed. We really are about as good as we can get with our guard guys, touching it will be a mistake. But if you need to touch it, the odd man out has to be Terry or Barbosa. The balance Lee provides for our roster will be much harder to replace, plus he's good fit with just about any guard.

The only move to make, if any, is try to turn Bass for a center. But I really don't see how weakening our guard rotation just to get a big or some PG, because we "need" a PG is acceptable. If you're getting some sort of superstar or potential great player, then that's one thing, but trading Lee just for the sake of getting a big, it's just bad value for me. Doubly so for this supposed need of a PG.

Since the beginning of the year, I've said the main culprits for our poor defense was a perimeter problem. With Bradley back, and Lee pressuring the ball the way he is once Bradley goes to the bench, and seeing the results we're getting, I think the point has been more than proven.

Go find a big if needed, but not at the expense of our guard rotation, in particular, those that bring the defense like Bradley and Lee, else you're solving one problem, while potentially creating a bigger one. And to consider that we have this group for the next 3 years, a group that should give us more often than not a very good advantage over other teams, then I hesitate even more with breaking them up.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree for one point:

If Bradley is injured, we're screwed anyways. I don't think we can win the conference, let alone multiple playoff series without him, for the perimeter defense you mention. So that being the case, why try and prevent a disaster with a safeguard that won't mitigate it? Either Bradley is playing, and we're hopefully winning, or he's not, and we're mediocre.

I'm not saying we have to make a trade, but Id be amenable to one involving Bass and Lee that brings us back a good 5 and a servicable 1.

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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2013, 12:29:01 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Now the 4 is another matter because Bass and Sully have shown that they can't play together, so if you can turn Bass into a big who can play with Sully, KG, and Wilcox, then the better.

Is the need for an upgrade on Bass or is the need for an upgrade on Wilcox/Collins so that Bass and Sullinger split time at the 4 and you get a big who can play with them when KG is resting?

Given how someone like Greg Smith has turned out for Houston, perhaps another D-Leaguer like Brian Butch or Henry Sims might be as good or better than a minimum salary veteran big.

As I've mentioned previously, I'm high on Wilcox, so I got no problem with Wilcox filling that role. Personally I like Wilcox more than Bass anyways with this roster, though I don't think many agree with me. So if you can turn Bass in to a center, then you can use Wilcox as a 4, where he's at his best, and you can use him alongside KG, alongside Sully, and alongside this new center as situations allow.

Consider, he's only played about 5 minutes total with KG... that's a travesty, they showed the previous year that they can provide some very good defensive units together. And Wilcox has much better hands than Bass, so a better fit for Rondo's passes, and Pierce has a knack for finding him besides the rim. Out of necessity, he's simply had to fill a different role for us this year.

So, I don't see Wilcox as a problem that needs upgrading. He's a valuable player to have because he can fill in as needed at both positions. And we have 2 open roster spots.

And the way we're playing right now, I think he'll provide the boost many are looking for anyways. I'd like to see him rebound better though, but I think he's solid otherwise.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2013, 12:41:18 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Why I want a trade: We're 18-17, two of our top 3 players are likely gone next year, and we have redundancies at the 2 and 4, and big holes at the 1 and 5.

The trade I want is to turn some of those redundancies into strengths and turn our squad into a more balanced team, specifically by acquiring a competent veteran backup point and starting caliber 5.

Our guard rotation is perfect as is, don't touch it. Our "hole" at the one has been completely overstated, as has been the redundancy at the 2.

Now the 4 is another matter because Bass and Sully have shown that they can't play together, so if you can turn Bass into a big who can play with Sully, KG, and Wilcox, then the better.

It will just improves just about everyone in our big-men rotation.

But as for our guards, Lee plays well with Bradley, and plays well with Terry. When Bradley is off the floor, he picks up the defensive slack. There's really little redundancy there, all of them are more than capable ball-handlers, as it's been shown time and time again throughout the season. Then you have Barbosa eating the bench, who's also more than capable of delivering when needed as a PG.

So no, we don't need a back-up PG. Our guards are fine as is. The only combination I'm iffy about is Terry with Rondo, but it seems like they've been figuring it out a bit better as of late.

I disagree, and so does Doc. We have 4 guys who merit 30 minutes a night for 96 minutes of play, and of the 4, Rondo is the only traditional pass-first capable player.

We're just getting by right now, I think we can do better.

So what you're saying is that we have very good players, and good depth. Four players for 2 positions. Sounds about right, plus a fifth in Barbosa. "Pass-first" is overrated. Everyone on our team, but maybe Bass and Barbosa, are very willing passers. So no worries on that regard. Our team is littered with ball-handlers in multiple positions, we're fine.

I'm saying we have 4 good players for two positions, Id rather have 3 and improve our frountcourt, and get a veteran backup 1 as a 9th or 10th man.

I want our roster to look like this:

Rondo/Terry/?
Bradley/Terry/Barbosa
Pierce/Green
Sullinger/KG/Wilcox
KG/Starting caliber 5/Wilcox

I think a trimmed down consistent rotation with the new big getting about 25 minutes a night makes us a better, more consistent team.

I don't think that makes us any better, you're hurting our perimeter defense too much, all for a potential "PG". A PG who has to have size if you're going to keep Terry around, else, we're going to be destroyed. What happens if Bradley gets injured? Then you're double screwed. We really are about as good as we can get with our guard guys, touching it will be a mistake. But if you need to touch it, the odd man out has to be Terry or Barbosa. The balance Lee provides for our roster will be much harder to replace, plus he's good fit with just about any guard.

The only move to make, if any, is try to turn Bass for a center. But I really don't see how weakening our guard rotation just to get a big or some PG, because we "need" a PG is acceptable. If you're getting some sort of superstar or potential great player, then that's one thing, but trading Lee just for the sake of getting a big, it's just bad value for me. Doubly so for this supposed need of a PG.

Since the beginning of the year, I've said the main culprits for our poor defense was a perimeter problem. With Bradley back, and Lee pressuring the ball the way he is once Bradley goes to the bench, and seeing the results we're getting, I think the point has been more than proven.

Go find a big if needed, but not at the expense of our guard rotation, in particular, those that bring the defense like Bradley and Lee, else you're solving one problem, while potentially creating a bigger one. And to consider that we have this group for the next 3 years, a group that should give us more often than not a very good advantage over other teams, then I hesitate even more with breaking them up.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree for one point:

If Bradley is injured, we're screwed anyways. I don't think we can win the conference, let alone multiple playoff series without him, for the perimeter defense you mention. So that being the case, why try and prevent a disaster with a safeguard that won't mitigate it? Either Bradley is playing, and we're hopefully winning, or he's not, and we're mediocre.

I'm not saying we have to make a trade, but Id be amenable to one involving Bass and Lee that brings us back a good 5 and a servicable 1.

Despite how much Bradley's presence has lifted the club since his return, if we lose him, I don't think it will be the end of the world. Even if we don't lose Bradley in your scenario, you'd still be faced with stretches of poor perimeter defense, it'll be inevitable and without real alternatives, something that has been our main strength in this past 4 or so games, and Lee has been a big part of that with no letdown after Bradley goes to the bench. More important than anything, it's the perimeter defense which is crucial to get out of the East.

I'm not seeing a scenario where you replace Lee with a PG, while having Barbosa and Terry on your team, and it being an upgrade to your rotation. I'd really need you to give me a useful example because I don't see it.

And I'm struggling to see what has led you to believe that we need a back-up PG. I think our play has for two months now shown that we don't need one.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2013, 12:46:53 AM »

Online diconzo

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What about?

BOS sends: Brandon Bass, CLE 2013 2nd, BOS 2013 1st, BOS 2014 2nd
BOS receives: Dalembert

MIL sends: Dalembert
MIL receives: Omri Casspi, CJ Miles, CLE 2013 2nd

CLE sends: Omri Casspi, CJ Miles
CLE receives: Brandon Bass, BOS 2013 1st, BOS 2014 2nd

After Jan. 15th it wouldn't be a ridiculous trade. We lose our first rounder this year, but I feel like our future draft picks are more valuable. This year we're hoping to be around 22-26, that's definitely expendable if we can add a big like Dalembert.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2013, 12:47:47 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I'm thinking a trade like this:

Boston trades: Courtney Lee, Brandon Bass, 2013 1st
Milwaukee Trade: Beno Udrih, Sam Dalembert

Rids us of 13 million next season, gives us a big combo guard who trends more towards the 1 than 2, and gives us a big rim protector, who can hit a 10ft jumper, who rebounds, and is only on a 1 yr contract.

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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2013, 01:00:54 AM »

Offline j804

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I'm thinking a trade like this:

Boston trades: Courtney Lee, Brandon Bass, 2013 1st
Milwaukee Trade: Beno Udrih, Sam Dalembert

Rids us of 13 million next season, gives us a big combo guard who trends more towards the 1 than 2, and gives us a big rim protector, who can hit a 10ft jumper, who rebounds, and is only on a 1 yr contract.
are people really thinking Dalembert is going to protect the rim against James or Wade and other guys we see in the playoffs, rather have Lee/Bradley's feisty defensive duo backcourt and keep Bass then give them up for Samuel Dalembert. It is what's our strength and why we're playing the best defense in the league through these handful of games.
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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2013, 01:04:24 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I'm thinking a trade like this:

Boston trades: Courtney Lee, Brandon Bass, 2013 1st
Milwaukee Trade: Beno Udrih, Sam Dalembert

Rids us of 13 million next season, gives us a big combo guard who trends more towards the 1 than 2, and gives us a big rim protector, who can hit a 10ft jumper, who rebounds, and is only on a 1 yr contract.

Interesting, but I think it potentially weakens us too much next couple of years unnecessarily, and Beno's defense is too questionable for me, with the type of roster we have.

I personally pass on this. "Rids us of 13 million next season" I don't see as a good thing.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2013, 01:09:11 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I'm thinking a trade like this:

Boston trades: Courtney Lee, Brandon Bass, 2013 1st
Milwaukee Trade: Beno Udrih, Sam Dalembert

Rids us of 13 million next season, gives us a big combo guard who trends more towards the 1 than 2, and gives us a big rim protector, who can hit a 10ft jumper, who rebounds, and is only on a 1 yr contract.

Interesting, but I think it potentially weakens us too much next couple of years unnecessarily, and Beno's defense is too questionable for me, with the type of roster we have.

I personally pass on this. "Rids us of 13 million next season" I don't see as a good thing.

Interesting thing about Udrih, his defensive stats last season mark him as one of the best defenders in the league. Of course, this is a bit of an outlier, but it bears mentioning.

The thing I like about him is that you can play him next to Terry. He can defend a lot of 2s adaquately, playing the role of Jason Kidd, if less efficiently. He can also play next to Bradley.

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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2013, 01:12:32 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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The more I see how our 4 guard rotation has been playing since Bradley's return, i'm beginning to think trading any of them may be the wrong move.

Bass is easily the most expendable.  I've said this since the moment the C's re-singed him (I wanted a S&T).  Bass doesn't have very much value though.  About the best we can do is get a backup center and possibly an additional bench player.

So long as the player returning s 7ft and capable, I'd pull the trigger.

Still would love to get an all-star, but we'd have to trade more parts.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2013, 01:19:44 AM »

Offline j804

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The more I see how our 4 guard rotation has been playing since Bradley's return, i'm beginning to think trading any of them may be the wrong move.

Bass is easily the most expendable.  I've said this since the moment the C's re-singed him (I wanted a S&T).  Bass doesn't have very much value though.  About the best we can do is get a backup center and possibly an additional bench player.

So long as the player returning s 7ft and capable, I'd pull the trigger.

Still would love to get an all-star, but we'd have to trade more parts.
If we trade Bass then whos the starter? Sully? He's better where he's at now and doing what he's doing.
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Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2013, 01:34:19 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Hopefully.....the big we trade for is capable enough to start next to KG, thus allowing Sully to come off the bench.

Sully could get a lions share of minutes, and Wilcox is still around to fill the void as well.

Re: Simple question, do we need to make a trade? Why? Why not?
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2013, 06:39:23 AM »

Offline mctyson

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If we need to trade Courtney Lee for Dalembert to win the Eastern Conference....we are not winning the Eastern Conference.

 

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