Author Topic: The truth is... we don't need Rondo  (Read 8005 times)

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Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2013, 05:56:50 PM »
I love how people keep bringing up the 40 point game, as if Rondo has ever done anything close to that before in his 6 or so seasons in the league!  Didn't Tony Delk (or somebody similare) once score 50?

Honestly, I see both sides of the story.  Before I was strongly in the "keep Rondo at any cost" group, but now I'm starting to lean towards the thought that trading him might be better for the team.   

I love Rondo as a player and as a person, it would be incredibly sad to see him go.  No doubt he's one of my favorite Celtics, but my biggest concern is that he can't be depended on as the centerpiece of the team, either now or in the future.

For all the people who are strongly against trading Rondo, the biggest argument is that he is our future leader and the player we will build around.  The problem is that even now we rely more on Pierce (for our offense) and KG (for our defense) then we do on Rondo.  If either of those guys goes down we probably don't make the playoffs, and if both go down we are a lottery team regardless of whether we have Rondo or not.  Think about that.  Then ask yourself where will we be in three seasons (once KG and Pierce retire) if Rondo is our centerpiece?  The answer is probably not in the Playoffs.  I can foresee Bradley taking over for KG as the defensive anchor / leader of the team, but unless we can sign an elite scorer who can take over as our offensive leader, we will be heading straight into rebuilding mode. 

Think about John Stockton.  He was an elite playmaker and one of the greatest Point Guards to ever play the game.  While he was in Utah, the Jazz were one of the top teams in the league for roughly a decade, constantly going deep in the playoffs.  The thing is though, Stockton could never have taken them that far on his own - he needed an elite go-to scorer (Malone) by his side to carry the team.  Stockton was capable of scoring offensively, but to carry a team a capable scorer isn't enough, you need an elite scorer - a Dwyane Wade, a Kobe Bryant, a Paul Pierce, a Michael Jordan or a Derek Rose.  Rondo is very similar to Stockton in that regard, and unless we have a second All-Star talent a Celtics team led by Rondo will never win a title. 

People will bring up the Billups-led Pistons as an example, and it's true they never had an elite scorer, but that's the exception rather than the rule.  They won with elite defense and multiple consistent scorers (Rasheed, Prince, Hamilton, Billups), but there are very few examples where teams like that have been able to win it all.   

AB yesterday had 5 assists and 1 turnover, he played suffocating defense on Jason Kidd, and he played with great energy on offense.  I'm not saying he's the same calibre PG as Rondo, but he did a pretty solid good job of running the point in his absense, and IMHO he impacts the game just as much (if not more) defensively as Rondo impacts the game offensively.

The problem here is that Bradley's trade value (though solid) is much lower than Rondo's.  Traded on his own, Bradley would have no chance of bringing in an All-Star calibre player.  To even dream of such a thing you'd need to add numerous additional players (out of the Bass/Lee/Green/Terry group) AND you'd likely need to throw some draft picks in as well.  Worse case scenario you may even need to throw Sully in. That's a LOT of quality assets to give up for one player and filler, even if that player is an All-Star. 

However if we traded Rondo, he is valuable enough that on his own he could probably bring back a potential future All-Star like Demarcus Cousins.  If you throw in one decent role player (Bass) mediocre role player (Barbosa or Collins) and a pick we could possibly get Cousins+Evans or Cousins+Thomas in return.  If you can do that deal you suddenly have 5 talented guys who are 23 or younger (Cousins, Thomas/Evans, Sully, Bradley, Melo) and who are barely scratching the surface of their potential, and should be very productive players for the next 10 seasons.  You also get to keep Lee and Green who are both have 5 or so  seasons before they reach their prime.  On top of all that you still have Terry, Pierce and KG as veteran leaders who can guide us through the playoffs for the next two seasons.

By the time KG, Pierce and Terry retire at least one of our young guys should develop into an All-Star talent, while the other four should have developed into anything ranging from quality starters to borderline All-Stars, and all of them will still be only ~26 years old and years away from their prime.  Green and Lee (at 28-29 years old) will still be in their prime and will be solid role players at the very least.  We will have $30M in cap space (from the veterans retiring) that could be used to sign a max contract All-Star and multiple quality role players. The entire approach is very similar to what OKC went through with Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka only unlike OKC we wouldn't need to sacrifice the "NOW" to get there, becuase as long as Pierce and KG are on the team we have the potential to be a contender.

so just for a second, imagine we have a starting lineup something like this:

Bradley
Evans
Pierce
Garnett
Cousins

And a second unit like this:

Barbosa (if he isn't included in a the trade)
Terry
Lee
Green
Sullinger
Wilcox
Collins

Can you hoenestly try to tell me that this roster doesn't have deep playoff potential?

Offline timobusa

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2013, 06:16:13 PM »
it was one game. staaahhhpppppp!

We need rondo.

Bottom line.

Offline cman88

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2013, 06:35:48 PM »
Rondo is a star in this league...sure you can win games without him just by defense/the fact that we have pierce/Garnett but we are clearly a better team WITH rondo than without.

the bulls are winning without Rose, the pacers are winning without granger. does that mean they don't need them?


Offline Sketch5

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2013, 06:42:36 PM »
I love Rondo. I love how he passes the ball, how much fun it is watching him in the break makin those crazy bounce pass's.  I love when he's got it going hes fun to watch.

But thats the problem, he's onl has it going every few games, and then maybe n the playoffs. Maybe with Bradley he'll be more consistent, but his defense drive me nuts.

And the issues with the Refs if he keeps it up will hurt not just his pay check but the team if they make a run. You know how Stern is, already hates the C's, Kept his Golden boy out of the Finals for how many years? You think this will help at all.

Now if you got Cousins and Evans in a trade back, thats hard not to argue how good of a trade that is. YEah Cousins is a head case at times, maybe this stint got him on track, and maybe KG and PP can get him playing at the elite level. Plus we all know DA's love for Evans. Those two together can bring more to the table than Rondo.

But if Rondo could become PP or KG when it comes to leader ship, that would be hard to trade him. And no I don't think right now Cousins and Evans could be PP type leaders, but they could bring that leader in down the road.

I think Rondo's one of those guys you love and hate at the same time, he makes an amazing play and then next trip down he judo chops a ref. Don't really know which one out ways the other.

Offline eugen

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2013, 07:00:04 PM »
Some of you forgot to mention.
1. Rondo till now did not show to become a lider.
2. No maturity
3. The real leader are KG+PP
4. If yoy trade Rondo you can get great palyers in exchange(Gotart, Varejao, Gay, DW12, Gasol, Cousins, Smith)

Offline timobusa

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2013, 07:16:12 PM »
Rondo is a star in this league...sure you can win games without him just by defense/the fact that we have pierce/Garnett but we are clearly a better team WITH rondo than without.

the bulls are winning without Rose, the pacers are winning without granger. does that mean they don't need them?

This! TP

Offline Celtics18

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2013, 07:55:04 PM »
I am continually flabbergasted by the degree to which Rondo's consistent excellence in the playoffs is ignored by his detractors.

It's all about what kind of numbers you can put up during the 82 game preseason.  Nobody cares what you do when the games actually matter.  It's bizarre.
I am also continually flabergasted by the degree to which this purported excellence is overblown.

Sure, Rondo is a great player. He plays 40+ minutes in the playoffs and fills up the stat sheet. Excellent.

And "what you do when it actually matters" is give the ball to Paul Pierce, because you can't hit a long jumper or a free throw consistently.

Rondo does so much more than just give the ball to Paul Pierce when it "actually matters."   I think you realize that. 
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Offline Celtics18

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2013, 08:04:45 PM »
Yes-- we are a good team without Rondo--BUT we are only a championship caliber team with Rajon Rondo on our team.
Maybe, if you consider simply taking Rondo out of the lineup. Not so much if Rondo is traded for equal value.

  What's equal value? Someone that will play like Rondo does in the playoffs? Because that's pretty hard to find.
Everyone's clinging to the "Rondo in the playoffs" tune like there's no tomorrow. I guess only Rondo is equal value for Rondo, because he's the only one who plays like Rondo in the playoffs.

To repeat myself, Rondo has not yet distinguished himself as a transcendent, irreplaceable player. Sure, getting rid of him is huge in many respects. But it doesn't mean it won't make the team better if the right deal is available. Joakim Noah is the first name that comes to mind that I'd swap him for right away. I'm sure there are others.

You think Joakim Noah is a "transcendent, irreplaceable player"?
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Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2013, 08:09:54 PM »
The truth is, if we lost last night, people would be blaming Rondo for the loss. But since we won he's all of a sudden expendable. It's called a double standard and Rondo's been getting it for a while now.

The truth is, Rondo's 26, about to start an All-Star game and he's on a below-market contract for the next 2 seasons. Those are the kinds of guys you win championships with, guys you build your team with, not guys you look to trade midseason, especially not for guys like Cousins who while supremely talented isn't capable RIGHT NOW of being a rotation player on a championship team.

Threads like these remind me why I haven't posted in the forums in YEARS. Rondo is the biggest reason we have any chance of beating Miami, he's the one guy they can't account for, one of the few guys in the entire league who can share a court with Lebron and be the best player on any given night, and we win one measly game without him and we're ready to ship him off for Noah. Nonsense.
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Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2013, 12:01:05 AM »

Rondo is a star in this league...sure you can win games without him just by defense/the fact that we have pierce/Garnett but we are clearly a better team WITH rondo than without.

the bulls are winning without Rose, the pacers are winning without granger. does that mean they don't need them?

Yep, it means exactly that.  Chicago don't need Rose and the Pacers don't need Granger.  Both of those players are good, but both are also replacable if either team made a trade.

Think about it:
- Would Chicago not be just as good with Chris Paul or Russel Westrbook playing in Derek Rose's place?   
- Would Indiana not be just as good with Rudy Gay or Paul Pierce in Granger's place?

The thing is everyone talks about these trade ideas as if we have lost the player to injury, but big difference between losing a player to injury/suspension and losing a player to a trade.  The difference is that when you lose somebody to a trade, you get something back. 

Rondo, like Rose, is a high value asset and he would get a high value return otherwise you obviously wouldn't bother. 

Offline D.o.s.

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2013, 12:10:57 AM »
The Truth is... Paul Pierce.
Michael Jordan: It's a man's game, and you can't play.
 Bill Murray: It's 'cause I'm white, isn't it?
Michael Jordan: No. Larry's white, so what?
Bill Murray: Larry's not white. Larry's clear.

not sure the point of this thread.

Offline KGs Knee

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2013, 12:34:54 AM »
The truth is, if we lost last night, people would be blaming Rondo for the loss. But since we won he's all of a sudden expendable. It's called a double standard and Rondo's been getting it for a while now.

The truth is, Rondo's 26, about to start an All-Star game and he's on a below-market contract for the next 2 seasons. Those are the kinds of guys you win championships with, guys you build your team with, not guys you look to trade midseason, especially not for guys like Cousins who while supremely talented isn't capable RIGHT NOW of being a rotation player on a championship team.

Threads like these remind me why I haven't posted in the forums in YEARS. Rondo is the biggest reason we have any chance of beating Miami, he's the one guy they can't account for, one of the few guys in the entire league who can share a court with Lebron and be the best player on any given night, and we win one measly game without him and we're ready to ship him off for Noah. Nonsense.

Love this post, TP.

The bolded part needs to be qualified though.  Many players can share a court with Lebron and be better on any given night in the regular season.  Rondo is one of a select few that has done it in the playoffs.  This is what makes him truly special.
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Offline j804

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2013, 12:37:56 AM »
The truth is, if we lost last night, people would be blaming Rondo for the loss. But since we won he's all of a sudden expendable. It's called a double standard and Rondo's been getting it for a while now.

The truth is, Rondo's 26, about to start an All-Star game and he's on a below-market contract for the next 2 seasons. Those are the kinds of guys you win championships with, guys you build your team with, not guys you look to trade midseason, especially not for guys like Cousins who while supremely talented isn't capable RIGHT NOW of being a rotation player on a championship team.

Threads like these remind me why I haven't posted in the forums in YEARS. Rondo is the biggest reason we have any chance of beating Miami, he's the one guy they can't account for, one of the few guys in the entire league who can share a court with Lebron and be the best player on any given night, and we win one measly game without him and we're ready to ship him off for Noah. Nonsense.
TP Great post so true


Offline lightspeed5

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2013, 12:40:37 AM »
rondo was ranked by ESPN as the 12th best player in the league before the season began.

Offline Eddie20

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Re: The truth is... we don't need Rondo
« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2013, 12:51:37 AM »
Cousins who while supremely talented isn't capable RIGHT NOW of being a rotation player on a championship team.

Threads like these remind me why I haven't posted in the forums in YEARS. Rondo is the biggest reason we have any chance of beating Miami, he's the one guy they can't account for, one of the few guys in the entire league who can share a court with Lebron and be the best player on any given night, and we win one measly game without him and we're ready to ship him off for Noah. Nonsense.

The first part is ludicrous. Especially when you consider what players have been part of championship teams.

I like Rondo a lot and think he is immensely talented, but the consistency and maturity is missing. For better or worse, as he goes so go the C's. On any given night, yes, he could be better than LeBron. However, you can't deny that if he starts sulking, lacks focus and energy, something that happens way too often, then on any night he'll make lesser PG's like Isiah Thomas, Conley, Chalmers, etc. look like all-time greats.

 

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