Poll

Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?

Yes
40 (60.6%)
No
26 (39.4%)

Total Members Voted: 64

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Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2013, 08:45:22 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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He's a solid player - he's not a star player, but he's solid.

He's starting to play some really decent defense, his rebounding is steady improving, and his effort is looking much better.

He's just not scoring a million points because he's not getting the plays called for him, but he'll settle in fine.

Worth the contact no, but he's solid.

actually, he's pretty much the worst small forward in the whole nba this season.

click on this link, and go all the way to the bottom.  who do you think has the 3rd worst wins per 48 for ALL small forwards?:  http://www.thenbageek.com/players?direction=desc&positions%5B%5D=SF&sort=%22WP48%22

I strongly disagree, and I'm not too concerned with what that stat shows because of Green's role on the team.

To start the season his offense was terrible, his defense was terrible, and his effort was terrible.

At this point in the season his offense is still pretty poor overall, but his effort level, his defense and his rebounding have all improved.  If you watched today's game he didn't have a huge role in the offense so he didn't score a lot, but he played good defense and he had a couple of nice hustle plays. 

The only areas in Green's game that I'm concerned with at the moment are his ball handling and playmaking.  Especially ball handling, which he does really seem to lack confidence with.

Aside from that he is 5th on our team in scoring - after Pierce, Garnett, Rondo and Terry, Green is the only other player averaging up around double figures (9.6 PPG).

As the 5th best offensive player on our team and the best defender we have against bigger SF's, he's an important piece to this team.

I'm honeslty not too concerned about his box score production as long as he plays with effort and plays solid defense, and lately he's been doing that.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2013, 08:56:38 AM »

Offline Galeto

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Jeff Green is already decent.  The problem is that he'll probably never be much more than that.

A lot of fans seem to have talked themselves into believing that Green will eventually become a star-level player, a capable replacement for Paul Pierce.  That's not happening.  Green will show flashes of brilliance, but I think he'll always be an inconsistent player.

I completely agree with this.  And that's what we signed up for.  Many on this blog don't seem to understand that in today's NBA, a decent yet inconsistent 6'10" combo SF/PF with a variety of skills costs $8-9M per year.  Just the way it is.

I mean...we did get him (plus Kristic plus a draft pick) for Kendrick Perkins.  If we got the next Pierce in that deal, it would have been the trade of the century.

A decent, inconsistent player has to cost 8-9 million a year?  That's just the way the business of NBA basketball works?  And you've come to grips with this before most?

Sure there are inconsistent and decent players who got bad contracts that pay them as much as a Green but good teams try and not make that mistake.  A team doesn't have to sign one of those players to a bad contract.  It's not the cost of doing business. 

Here are the players making about as much as Green:

Biedrins: Bad deal due to heavy deterioration of abilities; not a bad deal at the time though

Nash:More than worth it.

Ryan Anderson: Worth it. And better than decent.

Shawn Marion: Worth it and better than decent

Millsap: Worth it and better than decent

Jameer Nelson: Not having the greatest of seasons thus far but I happen to think he's worth it and been a 8-9 million player or better in the past

Mo Williams: Worth it, solid point and better than decent anyway

Rodney Stuckey: Struggled and probably not worth it. More of a MLE player like Green.

Devin Harris: Not worth it now.

Jeremy Lin: Not worth it thus far, although better lately.

Omer Asik: Oh yes.

Anderson Varejao: Yes again

Thaddeus Young: Very solid player and what I wish Green could be like

Marvin Williams: Nope

Lamar Odom: Besides last season, well worth it

Villaneueva/Tyrus Thomas/John Salmons: No


So anyway, while there are some players making 8-9 million a year who are inconsistent and just decent, even at best, saying that is the norm is wrong.  For 8-9 million, many teams are getting their money's worth and more.  The quality of the players who get that amount are usually pretty good or better.  The badly run teams sign undeserving players to 8-9 million a year.  I wish the Celtics didn't number among them.

Those are all your opinions on those players, and they are all in different scenarios than Green, who is stuck on the bench behind Pierce.  And you are simply pulling players paid in his range and comparing him to them.  WTH is the comp between Green and Steve Nash?

My point was Green has skills and talents that command that kind of money in the NBA.  People on this board seem to think that the Celtics just gave him his contract because he asked for it.  He was getting paid $9M BEFORE the heart surgery.  There are no doubt a number of teams out there that would pay Green the same amount. 

And you just compiled a list of decent-to-good NBA players, not All Stars. Exactly my point.

I pulled the list of players currently making about as much as Green.  Of course those were my opinions of those players but a lot of teams are getting pretty good bang for their 9 million or so.  A majority of those players are better than Green.  Green is in the company of Marvin Williams, Villanueva, even Tyrus Thomas.  To state the obvious, that's not good company.  It's possible that another team or teams may have offered Green the same amount of years and money but those would've been bad teams.  The Celtics should not be making decisions like a bad team. 

Does Green being a 6'9 SF/PF hybrid (well in name or on paper only; he's not playing PF anymore and that's a good thing for the Celtics unless Bass is) mean the Celtics have to pay a premium?  On one hand, maybe 9 million is the going rate for 6'9 hybrid types if you go by Villaneuva, Marvin Williams and Tyrus Thomas but again, that's the going rate bad teams dish out.

You're correct that Green was going to get 9 million before having heart surgery but that was on an one year deal.  There's only limited risk on an one-year deal so you can overpay.  I never thought Ainge would dish out that much over 4 years.  It's not even about the money.  What's done has been done.  I was more upset that the Celtics decided Green was the type of player they wanted.  I much rather have role players who have one top skill and/or play with energy.  If they valued Green as a long-term player, it's alarming.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2013, 09:16:57 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think he already is a decent player.  The question is whether he will become a good player.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2013, 09:37:14 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Everybody complaining about the amount of his contract has to understand that Ainge was going to sign him [pretty much] no matter what, as we were going to go over the salary cap and we would have lost him for nothing. I get that four years is probably two too many, but apparently that was the going rate.

Green always has been and always will be at least a decent player and starting caliber player. He still does have potential, but even that is starting to pewter out. Would I like to see Green start a few games? Of course, but not really at the expense of Pierce.

If Green ever becomes an all-star, it would be a great success story, but his contract isn't 'horrible' and we were lucky enough to have the luxury of signing him...and frankly, I still believe he is a very tradeable asset.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2013, 09:51:30 AM »

Offline clover

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Everybody complaining about the amount of his contract has to understand that Ainge was going to sign him [pretty much] no matter what, as we were going to go over the salary cap and we would have lost him for nothing. I get that four years is probably two too many, but apparently that was the going rate.

Green always has been and always will be at least a decent player and starting caliber player. He still does have potential, but even that is starting to pewter out. Would I like to see Green start a few games? Of course, but not really at the expense of Pierce.

If Green ever becomes an all-star, it would be a great success story, but his contract isn't 'horrible' and we were lucky enough to have the luxury of signing him...and frankly, I still believe he is a very tradeable asset.

I think the issue has been 1a) people doubting that that was the going rate and 1b) people questioning whether he was worth it if it was. 

There's a reason agents earn what they earn.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2013, 10:07:43 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Everybody complaining about the amount of his contract has to understand that Ainge was going to sign him [pretty much] no matter what, as we were going to go over the salary cap and we would have lost him for nothing. I get that four years is probably two too many, but apparently that was the going rate.

Green always has been and always will be at least a decent player and starting caliber player. He still does have potential, but even that is starting to pewter out. Would I like to see Green start a few games? Of course, but not really at the expense of Pierce.

If Green ever becomes an all-star, it would be a great success story, but his contract isn't 'horrible' and we were lucky enough to have the luxury of signing him...and frankly, I still believe he is a very tradeable asset.

I think the issue has been 1a) people doubting that that was the going rate and 1b) people questioning whether he was worth it if it was. 

There's a reason agents earn what they earn.

1a) and 1b) I don't know why people care really.

I only care about is does he improve this team, does his addition prevent us from improving our team, and does he has trade value at any point of his contract? Would the alternative to signing him improve our team?

Considering those, I have no problem with signing Green, in fact, it was a good move regardless of the price tag he has at the moment, which I see as more the manageable.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2013, 10:09:29 AM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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Every player on a Championship team is not an all star.  I just want Green to overcome his reticence and put forth  the effort to be a bit more aggressive.  If he does that, IMO, he will be worth his contract.  I realize it takes time to get over the psychological effects of heart surgery.  Everyone knows he has the talent to do it.
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Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2013, 10:27:34 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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1a) and 1b) I don't know why people care really.

I only care about is does he improve this team, does his addition prevent us from improving our team, and does he has trade value at any point of his contract? Would the alternative to signing him improve our team?

Considering those, I have no problem with signing Green, in fact, it was a good move regardless of the price tag he has at the moment, which I see as more the manageable.

-Not very much. Possibly slightly.
-Yes, definitely. We are at a defacto hard cap that makes trades much more difficult. Also decreases future capspace for 4 years. The attitude of "we were over the cap anyway" is why the knicks sucked so bad for so long until someone bit the bullet and gutted long term contracts. You can always justify "1 more contract because we're over the cap" every single year and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle of no escape.
-Very little. Maybe in the last year, though it seems there are always bunches of teams with expirings. Maybe trade filler as a large contract to combine with actual positive assets like rookies/picks. Like a more expensive Scal.
-Probably, if the alternative was working out several other FA SFs, signing one cheap, then being able to add a player midseason by more trade flexibility and/or improved offseason flexibility.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2013, 10:37:53 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Yes by next season. We unfortunately do not have enough talent to wait around for him. He needs lots of work.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2013, 10:44:43 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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1a) and 1b) I don't know why people care really.

I only care about is does he improve this team, does his addition prevent us from improving our team, and does he has trade value at any point of his contract? Would the alternative to signing him improve our team?

Considering those, I have no problem with signing Green, in fact, it was a good move regardless of the price tag he has at the moment, which I see as more the manageable.

-Not very much. Possibly slightly.
-Yes, definitely. We are at a defacto hard cap that makes trades much more difficult. Also decreases future capspace for 4 years. The attitude of "we were over the cap anyway" is why the knicks sucked so bad for so long until someone bit the bullet and gutted long term contracts. You can always justify "1 more contract because we're over the cap" every single year and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle of no escape.
-Very little. Maybe in the last year, though it seems there are always bunches of teams with expirings. Maybe trade filler as a large contract to combine with actual positive assets like rookies/picks. Like a more expensive Scal.
-Probably, if the alternative was working out several other FA SFs, signing one cheap, then being able to add a player midseason by more trade flexibility and/or improved offseason flexibility.

1. I disagree.

2. This ignores our current goals, our roster make-up, and how all our contracts are structured in the coming years.

3. I see no problem with that. It's im that year where the need to trade him will be.

4.  We're building a championship contender. You don't pass up on Green for the possibility of a mid-season trade with our limited assestd as it is and our thin SF depth. Nothing stops Ainge from signing cheaper alternatives, even with Green, but himself.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2013, 10:59:14 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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1a) and 1b) I don't know why people care really.

I only care about is does he improve this team, does his addition prevent us from improving our team, and does he has trade value at any point of his contract? Would the alternative to signing him improve our team?

Considering those, I have no problem with signing Green, in fact, it was a good move regardless of the price tag he has at the moment, which I see as more the manageable.

-Not very much. Possibly slightly.
-Yes, definitely. We are at a defacto hard cap that makes trades much more difficult. Also decreases future capspace for 4 years. The attitude of "we were over the cap anyway" is why the knicks sucked so bad for so long until someone bit the bullet and gutted long term contracts. You can always justify "1 more contract because we're over the cap" every single year and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle of no escape.
-Very little. Maybe in the last year, though it seems there are always bunches of teams with expirings. Maybe trade filler as a large contract to combine with actual positive assets like rookies/picks. Like a more expensive Scal.
-Probably, if the alternative was working out several other FA SFs, signing one cheap, then being able to add a player midseason by more trade flexibility and/or improved offseason flexibility.

1. I disagree.

2. This ignores our current goals, our roster make-up, and how all our contracts are structured in the coming years.

3. I see no problem with that. It's im that year where the need to trade him will be.

4.  We're building a championship contender. You don't pass up on Green for the possibility of a mid-season trade with our limited assestd as it is and our thin SF depth. Nothing stops Ainge from signing cheaper alternatives, even with Green, but himself.

Except the problem is that Green has proven over years, different teams, different coaches, different levels of competition that he is exactly the same player: OK scoring, below average rebounding, below average defense, below average playmaking. That profile is not only easily replaceable by motivated D-Leaguers, but probably surpassable by someone who is actually really good at 1 or 2 things (like a good defense/good corner three guy for 800K per year). He has nothing at all that warrrants several millions over a replacement SF, unless you're a sucker for his "potential," of which he has shown no indication of tapping with utterly unchanged production across years and situations.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2013, 11:04:23 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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1a) and 1b) I don't know why people care really.

I only care about is does he improve this team, does his addition prevent us from improving our team, and does he has trade value at any point of his contract? Would the alternative to signing him improve our team?

Considering those, I have no problem with signing Green, in fact, it was a good move regardless of the price tag he has at the moment, which I see as more the manageable.



-Not very much. Possibly slightly.
-Yes, definitely. We are at a defacto hard cap that makes trades much more difficult. Also decreases future capspace for 4 years. The attitude of "we were over the cap anyway" is why the knicks sucked so bad for so long until someone bit the bullet and gutted long term contracts. You can always justify "1 more contract because we're over the cap" every single year and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle of no escape.
-Very little. Maybe in the last year, though it seems there are always bunches of teams with expirings. Maybe trade filler as a large contract to combine with actual positive assets like rookies/picks. Like a more expensive Scal.
-Probably, if the alternative was working out several other FA SFs, signing one cheap, then being able to add a player midseason by more trade flexibility and/or improved offseason flexibility.

1. I disagree.

2. This ignores our current goals, our roster make-up, and how all our contracts are structured in the coming years.

3. I see no problem with that. It's im that year where the need to trade him will be.

4.  We're building a championship contender. You don't pass up on Green for the possibility of a mid-season trade with our limited assestd as it is and our thin SF depth. Nothing stops Ainge from signing cheaper alternatives, even with Green, but himself.

Except the problem is that Green has proven over years, different teams, different coaches, different levels of competition that he is exactly the same player: OK scoring, below average rebounding, below average defense, below average playmaking. That profile is not only easily replaceable by motivated D-Leaguers, but probably surpassable by someone who is actually really good at 1 or 2 things (like a good defense/good corner three guy for 800K per year). He has nothing at all that warrrants several millions over a replacement SF, unless you're a sucker for his "potential," of which he has shown no indication of tapping with utterly unchanged production across years and situations.

I think he's a good player to have behind Pierce, nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2013, 11:09:15 AM »

Offline RyNye

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Just to give people some perspective, because everyone here is just throwing around vague qualifiers like "decent" and "good" and "talented" without backing them up, here are some Jeff Green facts on the season.

-He is a bad rebounder. You can argue it is improving, but it is still bad. His rebounding percentage is HALF the league average for small forwards. 6 per 48 instead of 11 per 48.

-He turns the ball over too much. He has more turnovers than steals and blocks COMBINED for the season. Hell, he has more turnovers than assists and steals combined for the season. That is not acceptable.

-The turnover numbers are even more startling when you realize that Jeff Green is actually a good defender, as other people in this thread have noted. He is getting a good number of steals and blocks (yes, his per game averages are low, because he doesn't play a lot of minutes. If you adjust for minutes played, he is getting steals and blocks at an above average rate). He also doesn't foul that much. So he is a good defender.

-He is not passing well. He has never been a great passer, but he has usually been at least average in terms of assist ratio and percentage. This season he is pretty abysmal. He is getting 0.8 assists per game; if you adjust for minutes played, the league SF average for assists is 1.4. I know that isn't a huge difference, but considering that he is also averaging 1.4 turnovers per game WITHOUT adjusting for minutes you realize what the problem is.

-His shooting is terrible. A hair below 42% from the field, 33% from 3, and a TS% of 50.5%. The league average for small forwards in those categories? 47%, 35%, and 53%. Also, he only gets 1.13 PPS , well below the league average of 1.22.

-Although he is a very good free throw shooter, he doesn't get to the line very often. He is overing just around the league average in free throw attempts per game, and considering that so far free throws are the only way he can score efficiently he needs to draw more fouls.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2013, 11:19:35 AM »

Offline ScottHow

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Sadly at this point, I think he is what he is.

Re: Does anyone still think jeff green can become a decent player?
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2013, 11:25:57 AM »

LEHGOCELTICS

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Decent is all he'll ever be. He's done making any more significant improvements.

 

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