Author Topic: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?  (Read 4644 times)

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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 12:34:09 PM »

Offline Chris

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More to the point, the Celtics have issue both ways.  Small patches are not going to work. 



They really need to make a game changing move if they want to open the window this season.

Well, they also have some major chemistry issues, and guys underperforming.  It is possible that a small change can make a bigger difference than the individual might otherwise.  They also already have added one potential gamechanger in Bradley.

That's not to say they don't still need a starting quality front court player, but this team as it stands has room to grow, without a dramatic change of personnel. 

Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 12:39:35 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
And yet, they're one of the best offensive teams in the league.

If by best, you mean 21st in the league in offensive efficiency, then yes, we are certainly one of the best offensive teams in the league.

Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 12:40:04 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.
In my mind, the issue is a direct result of playing Collins. The only problem is this move isn't exactly getting the expected defensive results.

We need a big man who can play (team) defense. And preferably hit an open shot. But not someone who can "draw the defense". Unless you think we're not getting enough open shots for Collins, or something.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 12:41:35 PM »

Online wdleehi

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I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.
In my mind, the issue is a direct result of playing Collins. The only problem is this move isn't exactly getting the expected defensive results.

We need a big man who can play (team) defense. And preferably hit an open shot. But not someone who can "draw the defense". Unless you think we're not getting enough open shots for Collins, or something.


He has only started 6 of the 14 games in Dec.  Played in only 8.   Averaged 15 minutes a game.



I agree he hurts the offense, but the issue runs deeper then that.


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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 12:55:00 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.
In my mind, the issue is a direct result of playing Collins. The only problem is this move isn't exactly getting the expected defensive results.

We need a big man who can play (team) defense. And preferably hit an open shot. But not someone who can "draw the defense". Unless you think we're not getting enough open shots for Collins, or something.


He has only started 6 of the 14 games in Dec.  Played in only 8.   Averaged 15 minutes a game.



I agree he hurts the offense, but the issue runs deeper then that.
Yes, the issue probably runs down to the fact that Bass has regressed so much this season that we had to put him on the bench.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 01:15:04 PM »

Online wdleehi

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I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.
In my mind, the issue is a direct result of playing Collins. The only problem is this move isn't exactly getting the expected defensive results.

We need a big man who can play (team) defense. And preferably hit an open shot. But not someone who can "draw the defense". Unless you think we're not getting enough open shots for Collins, or something.


He has only started 6 of the 14 games in Dec.  Played in only 8.   Averaged 15 minutes a game.



I agree he hurts the offense, but the issue runs deeper then that.
Yes, the issue probably runs down to the fact that Bass has regressed so much this season that we had to put him on the bench.


Did he regress or is he finding less space to shoot?


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 01:20:03 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.
In my mind, the issue is a direct result of playing Collins. The only problem is this move isn't exactly getting the expected defensive results.

We need a big man who can play (team) defense. And preferably hit an open shot. But not someone who can "draw the defense". Unless you think we're not getting enough open shots for Collins, or something.


He has only started 6 of the 14 games in Dec.  Played in only 8.   Averaged 15 minutes a game.



I agree he hurts the offense, but the issue runs deeper then that.
Yes, the issue probably runs down to the fact that Bass has regressed so much this season that we had to put him on the bench.


Did he regress or is he finding less space to shoot?

He is finding less space to shoot... Because we dont have a player who can draw the defense. Full circle.

They just need more talent in the frontcourt.  Add another legit starter to the frontcourt, and it will keep defenses honest, and open things up more for others, and it will also help guys like Sully and Bass settle in to roles that fit their skillsets better.
Offense is not an issue. They need someone who can defend a chair. Preferably, a 7-foot tall chair.

Offense is an issue though.  They have no flow offensively, and go cold too often, as defenses just funnel the ball to the weak link, whether its Collins, Bass, etc.
And yet, they're one of the best offensive teams in the league. Even if we fix everything you suggest is an issue with the offense, we'll still be going nowhere in a handbasket if we keep letting opponents shoot ..450-.500 from the field.


No, they are not.


They were in November.  But as teams got new scouting reports on the Celtics, the teams average in Nov (97 points a game, 47% shooting) has dropped in Dec (93.4 points a game, 44.5% shooting)

A new team should see those rise as the learn to play with each other.  The Celtics are seeing it drop as teams get scouting reports on the team.  This is not a good trend.
And if you take the better half of November they may even be the best in the league... this is just silly. On average, they're still one of the better teams in the league. I'm not judging a team of one individual month of work.


I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.   



And this is huge. This is the point in the season where the things we've been waiting to for and given excuses and free passes for at the beginning of the season, (chemistry, new players, defensive schemes, offensive flow) should start being noticed and coming around... Instead they are getting worse and the offense is a big part of that. Bigger than the defense? No. But is it still an issue? Absolutely. Teams are scouting and finding our offensive weakness and we are having trouble adjusting to beat that.

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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 01:20:13 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.
In my mind, the issue is a direct result of playing Collins. The only problem is this move isn't exactly getting the expected defensive results.

We need a big man who can play (team) defense. And preferably hit an open shot. But not someone who can "draw the defense". Unless you think we're not getting enough open shots for Collins, or something.


He has only started 6 of the 14 games in Dec.  Played in only 8.   Averaged 15 minutes a game.



I agree he hurts the offense, but the issue runs deeper then that.
Yes, the issue probably runs down to the fact that Bass has regressed so much this season that we had to put him on the bench.


Did he regress or is he finding less space to shoot?
It's not a spacing issue, it's in his head.

Last season, he was authomatic with jumpers, because he never thought twice when he got the ball in his range.

He now hesitates because he appears to look to drive to the basket every time. As a result, his offensive game has disintegrated completely.

I wasn't a big fan of his statements last season that he can "do more than just shoot jump shots". I don't think it does him well going out to prove that he somehow "deserved" his contract.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 01:20:56 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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I dont think the offense is that bad but it certainly isnt that good.

I think our biggest problem is that we dont have a consistent 20 point a night scoring threat anymore. Pierce averages in the 18 - 20 range and is very efficient but he isnt capable of putting up 25 at any given time anymore. He will work the game throughout the night and end up with his 18 points very slowly.

We dont really have a "go to" guy that is capable of going off and putting together a streak of scoring on a consistent basis. We don't really have a number one option, as much as I love Pierce and am one of his biggest supporters, he is best at being a number 2 option scoring 17 - 19 points a game. We need another one to do what he does and take the pressure off him. And when Pierce is hot we can get him the rock. Yes we have a system and a team based approach where the guys dont care who get the points, but when the system isnt working, like currently, there is noone one the team anymore to say give me the [dang] ball and score when they want.

I was hoping Green might be able to somewhat play that role. But unless he gets consistent minutes it doesnt look like he is going to be that player. Obviously these 20 point guys dont grow on trees, so it is going to be tough to fill this position. And I dont see Rondo becoming aggressive enough to be our main scoring option.

You look at the leagues top teams.
Miami - James 27ppg Wade 21ppg
OKC - Durant 28ppg Westbrook 22ppg
SA - Parker 19ppg Duncan 18ppg
LAC - Griffin 18ppg Paul 16ppg

Even NYC has Melo at 29ppg and J.R. Smith at 16.5ppg
 and  GS  Lee and Curry at 20ppg
 and even IND has West at 17 and George at 16

With Garnett gets 14.5 but he doesnt play enough minutes or have enough legs to be a go to option anymore. Rondo isnt aggressive enough. Terry isnt comfortable in his role yet.

If we had been able to get West over Bass. That would have been a nicer addition.

Would Al Jefferson address this need? He's not a big-time scorer, but he's averaged 20+ twice in his career, close to 20 a couple other times, and nearly 17 a game this season. Plus, he'd be an inside scoring threat, which could cause defenses to collapse and open things up on the perimeter for Pierce, Terry, etc.

Also worth noting: Adding Big Al would also give us the other legit big we need, plus rebounding and shot-blocking help.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2013, 01:21:26 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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He is finding less space to shoot... Because we dont have a player who can draw the defense. Full circle.
We didn't have one last year either. Your full circle just acquired a huge hole in it.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2013, 01:32:20 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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They just need more talent in the frontcourt.  Add another legit starter to the frontcourt, and it will keep defenses honest, and open things up more for others, and it will also help guys like Sully and Bass settle in to roles that fit their skillsets better.
Offense is not an issue. They need someone who can defend a chair. Preferably, a 7-foot tall chair.

Offense is an issue though.  They have no flow offensively, and go cold too often, as defenses just funnel the ball to the weak link, whether its Collins, Bass, etc.
And yet, they're one of the best offensive teams in the league. Even if we fix everything you suggest is an issue with the offense, we'll still be going nowhere in a handbasket if we keep letting opponents shoot ..450-.500 from the field.


No, they are not.


They were in November.  But as teams got new scouting reports on the Celtics, the teams average in Nov (97 points a game, 47% shooting) has dropped in Dec (93.4 points a game, 44.5% shooting)

A new team should see those rise as the learn to play with each other.  The Celtics are seeing it drop as teams get scouting reports on the team.  This is not a good trend.
And if you take the better half of November they may even be the best in the league... this is just silly. On average, they're still one of the better teams in the league. I'm not judging a team of one individual month of work.


I am just looking at the trend.  And the offense is getting worse as the Celtics players should be learning how to play with each other.

I agree. They were having more big-scoring games in the beginning of the season, and now they're scoring less—fewer than 85 a game over the last four games.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2013, 01:34:31 PM »

Online wdleehi

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He is finding less space to shoot... Because we dont have a player who can draw the defense. Full circle.
We didn't have one last year either. Your full circle just acquired a huge hole in it.


No.


Last year, both Pierce and KG found an offensive game that teams had to respect and they adjusted to them.  (This doesn't always mean a double team but guys cheating to help)


This created more space. 





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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2013, 01:57:04 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Seriously, the kind of plAyer you described is a star player.  Not only do we need them, every team does.  They aren't just lying around.

Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 02:23:03 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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He is finding less space to shoot... Because we dont have a player who can draw the defense. Full circle.
We didn't have one last year either. Your full circle just acquired a huge hole in it.


No.


Last year, both Pierce and KG found an offensive game that teams had to respect and they adjusted to them.  (This doesn't always mean a double team but guys cheating to help)


This created more space.
I don't see how the situation is different this season. If anything, Bass should find even more open shots, since Pierce consistently faces heavy paint traffic when driving to the basket.
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Re: How much do the Celtics need someone who can draw the defense?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 04:11:58 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think it would help tremendously.  Having either a consistent slasher or a true post player would transform this offense, as it would get more open looks for everybody.


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