Author Topic: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)  (Read 3270 times)

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Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 03:36:37 PM »

Offline jaketwice

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Perkins shoots 47%, cousins shoots 40.9%

Look at the records of the teams with Centers with low shooting percentages:

Toronto?

Indiana?

The Center's shooting percentage is basically a predictor of the overall team's success. 

Cousins would make that team WORSE. Not a good idea.

That's possibly the worst evaluation tactic ever.  Doesn't take into account that Cousins would be joining 2 of the top 10 players in the league allowing Cousins to get much easier and better looks.

Perk takes like 5 shots a game and can really only dunk if he is wide open.Cousins is a much more versatile and dominant player. He just got a triple double against the c's.

Such a ridiculous statement

Perk takes 5 shots a game because they have all of these other good players. They are the best, or second best team in the league.

A triple double does not a good player make. Sacramento is a terrible team. ...is a trade going to make Cousins stop missing shots?

If he were a "dominant player," he wouldn't miss so much. How, precisely, will the presence of better players improve Cousins' play? His shots all come - or should all come, pretty close to the rim. He is a bad shooter because he lacks real post game.

First of all, I didn't say Cousins was a dominate player in the league, I said he is much more dominant and versatile than Perk.

Better teammates would help him because he wouldn't be the #1 or 2 option, so he can get much easier looks when Westbrook penetrates and Durant is being double teamed.

And perk takes 5 shots a game because he sucks on offense.

Are you seriously trying to convince people Perk is a better player than cousins? ::)

Straw man argument much? Cousins is a bad player. He has a low field goal percentage. I am suggesting that adding Cousins to any team, would probably not do much for the team (unless that team was Toronto, or Indiana). He fouls a lot. He turns the ball over a lot. Of course, he also had a bad attitude, which probably means he's an idiot. And, let's be real - it's the smart players that are successful.

Jason Collins, Gerald Green, and Chris Wilcox are not going to compete for a Nobel Peace prize.

I was merely pointing out that - the second best team in the league is probably not interested in changing their schemes. Why fix what isn't broken? Plugging Cousins into Perkins' role would result in a net reduction in PPG, because Perkins has a higher field goal percentage that Cousins.

What would Cousins bring to the Thunder that they need, and do not have?

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 04:17:46 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Still a better player than Perk today though. 

I don't think he is a bad player.  He is inefficient on offense.   But he can pass well and rebound.   Even with his low FG% he still outboards a lot of Centers in the league.

We would not need him to score.   We play Jason Collins here who does nothing shooting wise.   It is obvious you don't like the guy.

It's possible he has a low FG because he is a on crappy team.   His FT% are decent.   That shows me he can shoot a bit.   I think he is mailing it in folks.   Guys who can shoot FT usually can shoot jumpers.   Do you think it is possible he has quit on his team?   I do.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Ah, the romanticizing of a player who contributes little to the Thunder continues.

The Perkins love on this board has now officially reached the Silly Season.

We don't miss Perkins. Never have. What we miss is a competent offensive threat - which Perkins never was - at the 5.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 05:08:24 PM »

Offline jaketwice

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Ah, the romanticizing of a player who contributes little to the Thunder continues.

The Perkins love on this board has now officially reached the Silly Season.

We don't miss Perkins. Never have. What we miss is a competent offensive threat - which Perkins never was - at the 5.

That is not at all what this discussion has been about. Reading comprehension fail.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 05:21:12 PM »

Offline jaketwice

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It's possible he has a low FG because he is a on crappy team.   His FT% are decent.   That shows me he can shoot a bit.   I think he is mailing it in folks.   Guys who can shoot FT usually can shoot jumpers.   Do you think it is possible he has quit on his team?   I do.

So - this is my big issue with Cousins. I agree that he is a reasonably good rebounder.

I disagree with the premise that, "he is on a bad team, and therefore will be better on another team."

If he were a wing, this argument might hold water. However, as a Center, his job is going to be, more or less, exactly the same wherever he does it. Take, for example, Al Jefferson ...he has had more years in the league, and has basically been the same player wherever he's been.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2389/al-jefferson

Same with Shaq (the lone exception being playing with Nash - and Rondo, which improved his efficiency tremendously).

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/614/shaquille-oneal

Here's Duncan, for comparison purposes:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/215/tim-duncan

...Cousins' field goal percentage kind of is what it is. It's one of the most solitary jobs in basketball. Maybe, if he were hugely dominant, and getting double teamed every night, he'd improve by going to a team with another offensive threat. However, that's not what's happening. If Cousins were a legitimate mandatory double team, he'd simply have a higher field goal percentage.

Your argument that he may be, "mailing it in," begs the question of why you would want someone like that on your team. Really? Tyreke Evans, Thomas Robinson, and Jason Thompson can't get it done? He either is (a) not good enough; or (b) has personality issues that detract from his talent to render him not good enough.

I'll take a pass. And I think OKC does, too.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2013, 05:41:13 PM »

Offline pp34isthe1

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You couldn't convince me cousins FG% "is what it is". See Tyson Chandler before Chris Paul. The right point guard has a tremendous impact on a developing player, especially a big. Here's even an article on Tyson that mentions this.

http://basketball.realgm.com/article/225126

On another note, I don't think DMC will be going anywhere unless he really forces his hand. Even then chances of Celtics getting him are slim.

I've mentioned OKC having the assets to get DMC. That team would be scary. Really scary
Ray Allen 2004 on Kobe Bryant: "in about a year or two he will be calling out to Jerry Buss that we need some help in here, or trade me."

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 05:53:58 PM »

Offline jaketwice

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You couldn't convince me cousins FG% "is what it is". See Tyson Chandler before Chris Paul. The right point guard has a tremendous impact on a developing player, especially a big. Here's even an article on Tyson that mentions this.

http://basketball.realgm.com/article/225126

On another note, I don't think DMC will be going anywhere unless he really forces his hand. Even then chances of Celtics getting him are slim.

I've mentioned OKC having the assets to get DMC. That team would be scary. Really scary

You have a point. ...but look at how many shots Chandler takes in a game, or in a year. He has never been a player who the team has expected to manufacture points.

Cousins takes many more shots, because he is expected to work with his back to the basket. I don't think that a traditionalist would see Chandler as a "dominant" center.

Chandler is a "good" player - but he is strictly a role player. You don't build a team around Tyson Chandler.

Now, if you're saying that we ought to significantly reduce our expectations for Cousins' performance, that's something else - but he's going to need to show he can thrive with fewer touches.

Cousins is not a guy through whom you run an offense. And I don't think he's a guy who accepts a reduced role. He's a player who takes a lot of shots, and misses a lot.

Chandler is a guy who never took a lot of shots, but did better at making the shots he did take when he played with a great point guard. ...mostly because he dunks the ball, and that's it.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2013, 09:42:02 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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So - this is my big issue with Cousins. I agree that he is a reasonably good rebounder.

I disagree with the premise that, "he is on a bad team, and therefore will be better on another team."

If he were a wing, this argument might hold water. However, as a Center, his job is going to be, more or less, exactly the same wherever he does it. Take, for example, Al Jefferson ...he has had more years in the league, and has basically been the same player wherever he's been.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2389/al-jefferson

Same with Shaq (the lone exception being playing with Nash - and Rondo, which improved his efficiency tremendously).

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/614/shaquille-oneal

Here's Duncan, for comparison purposes:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/215/tim-duncan

...Cousins' field goal percentage kind of is what it is. It's one of the most solitary jobs in basketball. Maybe, if he were hugely dominant, and getting double teamed every night, he'd improve by going to a team with another offensive threat. However, that's not what's happening. If Cousins were a legitimate mandatory double team, he'd simply have a higher field goal percentage.

Your argument that he may be, "mailing it in," begs the question of why you would want someone like that on your team. Really? Tyreke Evans, Thomas Robinson, and Jason Thompson can't get it done? He either is (a) not good enough; or (b) has personality issues that detract from his talent to render him not good enough.

I'll take a pass. And I think OKC does, too.

How does it make any difference if he is a wing, a PG of a center?

You even said yourself that Shaq's offensive efficiency improved signifcantly when he played alongside Nash and Rondo.  Through the rest of his career in LA, Miami and Cleveland he never had a proper PG to get him easy shots.  He was dominant regardless simply because he is one of the greatest centers to ever play the game, but combining him with proper pass-first PGs late in his career helped to keep him efficient even in his late 30s. 

Cousins plays on a team that has no offensive structure.  Everybody tries to just score themselves - everybody wants the ball in their hands.  They have no proper playmaker to set guys up, they have no truly dominant scorer to nominate as the "take the last shot" type of guy.  Their offensive setup is chaos.

It's very possible that Cousins offensive efficiency could improve dramatically once he is in an organised offensive system playing with the best passing PG in the NBA. Hell Chris Wilcox has a career FG percentage of 53%, but he's shooting 71% this season playing alongside Rondo.  Most of that is due to all of the easy lobs he's getting which he simply has to finish.  If Cousins' FG% were to increase from 41% to say 47% alongside Rondo then that's plenty efficient enough.

Also what's this "Decent rebounder" talk.  Decent???  Cousins' rebound rate of 18.2% is actually better than Al Jefferson (17.9%), Marcin Gortat (15.9%) and Emeka Okafor (15.2%).  It's on par with Dwight Howard (18.7%).  Cousins is more than just a 'Decent' rebounder, he's an elite rebounder and one of the best in the league.  Move him over to the worst rebounding team in the NBA and the rebounds are pretty much all his - at 22 years of age he has the potential to become a KLove / Varejao calibre rebounder in the years to come.

Also Cousins' assist ratio of 14.7% is exceptional for a center.  It's right on par with Kevin Garnett (Kevin Garnett (14.2%) who is considered one of the best passing big men in the game. 
 
Compare that to some of the other bigs that have been mentioned in trades and only Nene rates better:

* Al Jefferson (10.8%)
* Marcin Gortat (6.0%)
* Emeka Okafor (7.4%)
* Nene (21.4%)
 
People also say hes very turnover prone.  His turnover ratio the last two seasons has been 11.85 and 11.74, respectively.  Lets compare to the other bigs:

* Al Jefferson (6.58)
* Marcin Gortat (11.23)
* Emeka Okafor (11.3)
* Nene (13.58)

Looking at our other plausable trade targets at the centre spot, DMC's certain not the turnover-happy guy people seem to suggest.  Before anyone mentiones Jefferson's rate, his is abnormally low and probably one of the 10 lowest in the league.  Cousins' turnover ratio is about average, and on par with Gortat and Okafor.


Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2013, 10:07:02 PM »

Offline lightspeed5

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okc is not even remotely thinking of disturbing their locker room with that kid.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2013, 10:15:21 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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If he was more established, I could see it.



But I see a team like the Thunder as an impediment of his growth. 


The vet leadership of this team is Perk (according to everything said by the Thunder)  He would be gone.


Durrant and Westbrook will limit Cousins touches to the point of frustration.  (Heck, fans get frustrated when Durrant doesn't get enough shots)


Four or five years from now when these players are a little older (a key ingredient in making the three star Celtics work) and a little more likely to sacrifice, yes, it would make sense.


But at this point, his impact on the Thunder is not as great. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2013, 10:20:04 PM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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If he was more established, I could see it.



But I see a team like the Thunder as an impediment of his growth. 


The vet leadership of this team is Perk (according to everything said by the Thunder)  He would be gone.


Durrant and Westbrook will limit Cousins touches to the point of frustration.  (Heck, fans get frustrated when Durrant doesn't get enough shots)


Four or five years from now when these players are a little older (a key ingredient in making the three star Celtics work) and a little more likely to sacrifice, yes, it would make sense.


But at this point, his impact on the Thunder is not as great.

Westbrook for Cousins.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2013, 10:28:24 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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If he was more established, I could see it.



But I see a team like the Thunder as an impediment of his growth. 


The vet leadership of this team is Perk (according to everything said by the Thunder)  He would be gone.


Durrant and Westbrook will limit Cousins touches to the point of frustration.  (Heck, fans get frustrated when Durrant doesn't get enough shots)


Four or five years from now when these players are a little older (a key ingredient in making the three star Celtics work) and a little more likely to sacrifice, yes, it would make sense.


But at this point, his impact on the Thunder is not as great.

Westbrook for Cousins.


Not a chance. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2013, 10:39:30 PM »

Offline jaketwice

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So - this is my big issue with Cousins. I agree that he is a reasonably good rebounder.

I disagree with the premise that, "he is on a bad team, and therefore will be better on another team."

If he were a wing, this argument might hold water. However, as a Center, his job is going to be, more or less, exactly the same wherever he does it. Take, for example, Al Jefferson ...he has had more years in the league, and has basically been the same player wherever he's been.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2389/al-jefferson

Same with Shaq (the lone exception being playing with Nash - and Rondo, which improved his efficiency tremendously).

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/614/shaquille-oneal

Here's Duncan, for comparison purposes:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/215/tim-duncan

...Cousins' field goal percentage kind of is what it is. It's one of the most solitary jobs in basketball. Maybe, if he were hugely dominant, and getting double teamed every night, he'd improve by going to a team with another offensive threat. However, that's not what's happening. If Cousins were a legitimate mandatory double team, he'd simply have a higher field goal percentage.

Your argument that he may be, "mailing it in," begs the question of why you would want someone like that on your team. Really? Tyreke Evans, Thomas Robinson, and Jason Thompson can't get it done? He either is (a) not good enough; or (b) has personality issues that detract from his talent to render him not good enough.

I'll take a pass. And I think OKC does, too.

How does it make any difference if he is a wing, a PG of a center?

You even said yourself that Shaq's offensive efficiency improved signifcantly when he played alongside Nash and Rondo.  Through the rest of his career in LA, Miami and Cleveland he never had a proper PG to get him easy shots.  He was dominant regardless simply because he is one of the greatest centers to ever play the game, but combining him with proper pass-first PGs late in his career helped to keep him efficient even in his late 30s. 

Cousins plays on a team that has no offensive structure.  Everybody tries to just score themselves - everybody wants the ball in their hands.  They have no proper playmaker to set guys up, they have no truly dominant scorer to nominate as the "take the last shot" type of guy.  Their offensive setup is chaos.

It's very possible that Cousins offensive efficiency could improve dramatically once he is in an organised offensive system playing with the best passing PG in the NBA. Hell Chris Wilcox has a career FG percentage of 53%, but he's shooting 71% this season playing alongside Rondo.  Most of that is due to all of the easy lobs he's getting which he simply has to finish.  If Cousins' FG% were to increase from 41% to say 47% alongside Rondo then that's plenty efficient enough.

So I appreciate your analysis of Cousins' assist and rebounding efficiency. My analysis is centered on his FG%, so that's the part of your discussion that I'll address.

The first point you raise is that being a center is not substantively different from being a wing or a forward. That's not accurate. The center runs the show from the post. Once the center gets the ball in the post, he becomes almost like a point guard, deciding whether to score, or to pass the ball to a shooter. ...in that sense, a center is significantly less reliant on a point guard - except in one respect: the entry pass.

An entry pass, however, is not a terrifically complex move - at least not in the half court. Now, a great point guard may improve the efficiency of a player to a degree - an an offense where it is understood that the point guard is making offensive decisions. ...but Cousins doesn't, and can't, operate in such a system, because he's such a prima-dona.

With all due respect - I do not think 47% is "enough" for a center worth trading half the roster. Likewise, I do not think that Wilcox' performance this year is indicative of the effect Rondo would have on Cousins. Wilcox has take a total of 63 shots this year.

Cousins, who shoots 1000 shots a year, is going to have to create for himself - and, we have every indication that, when given the chance to do that, Cousins is likely to miss.

Re: OKC Should go after Cousins (they have the pieces to trade for him)
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 10:39:27 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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If OKC coaches could get Cousins to stop shooting jumpers, or any shots where his feet aren't in the paint, he'd be a most valuable offensive asset. 

Defensively, they'd be a weaker team if Perk was in the trade.  I really don't see any reason why Perk would Have to be in this deal.  OKC could trade Lamb, Jones, the Toronto pic and one of their own firsts for DMC and that would be a pretty good haul. The could also shop out Reggie Jackson if that wasn't enough for Sacto.   

OKC could bring Cousins off the pine and play him 25 minutes a night this season.  They could reduce Perk's minutes down to 20 or so, and Collison down to 16.  If Cousins bought in, that team would be an extremely tough playoff out, because it now has the one thing it was missing, low post scoring.

 

 

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