Author Topic: Something has to change. Suggestions?  (Read 5902 times)

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Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2012, 02:35:37 PM »

Offline D Dub

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1) 3pt shooting, both sides of the ball.  Terry, Green, Lee habitually late closing out & missing too many open looks 

2) O rebounding.  We shoot tons of outside shots & aren't particularly good at it.  Maybe at least try for seconds?

3) Rondo to the Stripe.  Avoiding FT's is great for keeping opponents out of foul trouble

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2012, 02:36:00 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Ainge has built a team out of square pegs that simply don't fit in any of the numerous gaping holes in this club.

Danny did bring in Krstic and Darko.  The only person on the Celtics who had anything to do with those guys leaving the team is Doc.  Danny also brought in an athletic wing in Green and I'll ask the question again...how many times has Boston ever run a play for Green?  Danny also brought in a 6th-man who's been one of the best bench players in the league the last several years.  It's not Danny's fault Doc tried to turn him into Ray Allen Jr.  And outside of Sully, every guy on this team has at least been capable of playing mediocre NBA defense during their careers.

This may not be a championship-level team, but there's clearly enough talent here to be better than this team has been so far this year.

Mike
There isn't the time to rebut this in detail ...

However, the issues that confront this team are far more complicated than a simplistic attempt to lay them all at the feet of Doc Rivers.

Not buying Rivers is the problem.

At all.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2012, 02:40:59 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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As crazy as it sounds if we did let Doc go, the Celtics pride we've built up over this run would die with his firing.

I don't think he is the greatest coach in the world, but he's a Celtic in my eyes.

I realize that all coaches eventually leave/get fired/move on, but firing Doc would just feel wrong. It would go against everything Ainge/players have said through the years about staying with Doc through the early rough years.


Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2012, 03:14:07 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Ainge has built a team out of square pegs that simply don't fit in any of the numerous gaping holes in this club.

Danny did bring in Krstic and Darko.  The only person on the Celtics who had anything to do with those guys leaving the team is Doc.  Danny also brought in an athletic wing in Green and I'll ask the question again...how many times has Boston ever run a play for Green?  Danny also brought in a 6th-man who's been one of the best bench players in the league the last several years.  It's not Danny's fault Doc tried to turn him into Ray Allen Jr.  And outside of Sully, every guy on this team has at least been capable of playing mediocre NBA defense during their careers.

This may not be a championship-level team, but there's clearly enough talent here to be better than this team has been so far this year.

Mike
There isn't the time to rebut this in detail ...

However, the issues that confront this team are far more complicated than a simplistic attempt to lay them all at the feet of Doc Rivers.

Not buying Rivers is the problem.

At all.

AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Is it possible to say ANYTHING against the Holy Doc without his disciples running to his defense?

Look, is Doc Rivers solely responsible for the problems this year?  No.

Is Doc soley responsible for the problems this team has had in the past?  No.

Can you blame Ainge for certain moves he's made, contracts signed and players missed out on?  Sure.

But there's no denying that, on paper, this was as talented a Celtic team as any since Banner 17.  Given what was possible, this is about as good a team as any GM could have assembled.  If this team can't get it done, that can't be blamed on Ainge.

If he doesn't make the right moves to fix it, THAT you can blame on him.

The state of this team right now is entirely on the shoulders of Doc and the players.  You can argue about which is more responsible, but you can't exempt either of responsibility.

Mike

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2012, 03:34:42 PM »

Online nickagneta

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Ainge has built a team out of square pegs that simply don't fit in any of the numerous gaping holes in this club.

Danny did bring in Krstic and Darko.  The only person on the Celtics who had anything to do with those guys leaving the team is Doc.  Danny also brought in an athletic wing in Green and I'll ask the question again...how many times has Boston ever run a play for Green?  Danny also brought in a 6th-man who's been one of the best bench players in the league the last several years.  It's not Danny's fault Doc tried to turn him into Ray Allen Jr.  And outside of Sully, every guy on this team has at least been capable of playing mediocre NBA defense during their careers.

This may not be a championship-level team, but there's clearly enough talent here to be better than this team has been so far this year.

Mike
There isn't the time to rebut this in detail ...

However, the issues that confront this team are far more complicated than a simplistic attempt to lay them all at the feet of Doc Rivers.

Not buying Rivers is the problem.

At all.

AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Is it possible to say ANYTHING against the Holy Doc without his disciples running to his defense?

Look, is Doc Rivers solely responsible for the problems this year?  No.

Is Doc soley responsible for the problems this team has had in the past?  No.

Can you blame Ainge for certain moves he's made, contracts signed and players missed out on?  Sure.

But there's no denying that, on paper, this was as talented a Celtic team as any since Banner 17.  Given what was possible, this is about as good a team as any GM could have assembled.  If this team can't get it done, that can't be blamed on Ainge.

If he doesn't make the right moves to fix it, THAT you can blame on him.

The state of this team right now is entirely on the shoulders of Doc and the players.  You can argue about which is more responsible, but you can't exempt either of responsibility.

Mike
You know Mike if you hadn't been basically calling Doc a horrible coach and calling for his removal since the moment you joined Celticsblog, you might have a bit of credibility regarding criticism of Doc.

But, given how you have posted about him since the moment you started posting, its pretty easy to see you have no credibility when discussing whether Doc is the problem or not.

This team is poorly constructed.

When Doc has stuck with his starters and rotations in the past he has been roundly criticized by some for not jerking people in and out of the starting lineup and rotation when someone wasn't playing great.

Now this year he is jerking players in and out of the starting lineup and the rotation and he is still be criticized by those same people.

When Doc stuck with Perk and KG and was at times getting run off the court people criticized him not running and playing the occasional small ball. No that he has zero quality bigs and the league has been transformed into a league of the better teams playing small, Doc gets criticized for playing too much small ball.

When Doc played vets he was criticized for not playing young players. When he plays young players, he gets criticized for not playing them enough. When he plays them more and the team isn't playing well, he gets criticized for his coaching ability because he can't make the team win.

Doc is a great coach. He has lots of warts. But this team is not losing because of Doc's coaching. This team is losing because KG and Pierce and Terry are starting to show they can not perform anywhere near the way they used to or as consistently as they used to. This team is losing because they have one star player and an entire roster of role players. This team is losing because that one star player isn't enough to will this team to wins all by himself, especially offensively. This team is losing because it was built on the concept of defense and the recent additions to this team have been players that are not good defensive players.

This team has 2 good rebounders and zero dominant or great rebounders. They have played without their shutdown wing/guard player. They have had inconsistent and lackluster years from just about every player they added to this team that didn't play for this team last year.

And this hasn't been Doc's best coaching year.

But when it comes to the list of reasons why this team is losing, Doc's coaching is way, way, way down on the bottom and if this team is to turn it around, it will probably be because of Doc's ability to manage personalities, inspire his players and teach his players to become a better team by sacrificing their individuality.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 03:44:54 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2012, 03:39:46 PM »

Offline diddybop

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Ainge has built a team out of square pegs that simply don't fit in any of the numerous gaping holes in this club.

Danny did bring in Krstic and Darko.  The only person on the Celtics who had anything to do with those guys leaving the team is Doc.  Danny also brought in an athletic wing in Green and I'll ask the question again...how many times has Boston ever run a play for Green?  Danny also brought in a 6th-man who's been one of the best bench players in the league the last several years.  It's not Danny's fault Doc tried to turn him into Ray Allen Jr.  And outside of Sully, every guy on this team has at least been capable of playing mediocre NBA defense during their careers.

This may not be a championship-level team, but there's clearly enough talent here to be better than this team has been so far this year.

Mike

Wow. Have you ever thought that maybe plays aren't run for Jeff Green because he can't do anything outside of the following:

-Put his head down and drive hard to his right (about 70% of the time)
-Shoot a corner three (20% of the time)
-Get it in the post, hold it for 8 seconds and either pass out, lose it or flick the ball up like some type of Shawn Marion/Hook shot (10% of the time)

He has been literally incapable of doing anything besides those things. Against GSW there was one play where he went to his right, then tried to cross to his left and almost fell down.

Jeff Green is incredibly gifted athletically, and outside of a few big dunks, and a couple chase down blocks, he doesn't do much else. This has been who he is since Georgetown. Nothing has changed. I have yet to see Jeff set one hard pick in a game. ONE. His rebounding for a 6'9" athletically gifted player is horrible. And his defense has been very, very mediocre.

Courtney Lee was brought here to start at the two while AB rehabs. He has yet to figure ANY of the defensive schemes of the team. His on ball d is above average, but his team defense makes Brandon Bass look like KG Jr. Oh not to mention he went through a ridiculous shooting slump and is still shooting 32%  from three. Doc tried to start Courtney Lee, but his awfulness on both ends of the floor forced him to start Terry - who was supposed to be our 6th man.

People thinking Doc is the problem are absolutely ridiculous. The players have underperformed. They have also been given chances to solidify roles and haven't been able to. Players in the past have figured out how to play Celtics defense. Because some new guys haven't been able to isn't Doc Rivers' fault.

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2012, 04:56:44 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Wow. Have you ever thought that maybe plays aren't run for Jeff Green because he can't do anything outside of the following

How much of Jeff Green did you see play in OKC?  How do you have any idea what he can and cannot do if he never gets the opportunity to do it?  Do you know what I found when I compared this year's stats for Jeff Green and Marquis Daniels?  Daniels is averaging more shots per minute with the Bucks than Green is with the Celtics, and that's with noted chuckers Jennings and Ellis in Milwaukee.

Mike

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2012, 05:08:20 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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He is inconsistent.  When given an opportunity he has not produced.   I think Doc wants to win, I think Doc would play him if he was on fire.   He is not though.   Playing him is like flipping a coin but it seems like it comes up tails more than heads so far.

If he was so great in OKC why did they trade him?  For a bum legged C?

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2012, 05:10:16 PM »

Offline MBunge

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You know Mike if you hadn't been basically calling Doc a horrible coach and calling for his removal since the moment you joined Celticsblog, you might have a bit of credibility regarding criticism of Doc.

And you have credibility on the issue of Doc because...?

No coach is perfect.  Not Red and not Doc.  Doc is certainly entitled to some of the credit for the success Boston has had since KG and Ray got here.  He also deserves some of the blame for the team sucking before that and their struggles since Banner 17.

If I or anyone else feel there's something to criticize about Doc's coaching, we should be able to express the opinion without being treated as though we were blaspheming against God Himself.

Mike

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2012, 05:17:02 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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You know Mike if you hadn't been basically calling Doc a horrible coach and calling for his removal since the moment you joined Celticsblog, you might have a bit of credibility regarding criticism of Doc.

And you have credibility on the issue of Doc because...?

No coach is perfect.  Not Red and not Doc.  Doc is certainly entitled to some of the credit for the success Boston has had since KG and Ray got here.  He also deserves some of the blame for the team sucking before that and their struggles since Banner 17.

If I or anyone else feel there's something to criticize about Doc's coaching, we should be able to express the opinion without being treated as though we were blaspheming against God Himself.

Mike

On a lighter note, Red was perfect and is pretty much a god. #religionofRed *i'm not worthy* *i'm not worthy*

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2012, 05:25:53 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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You know Mike if you hadn't been basically calling Doc a horrible coach and calling for his removal since the moment you joined Celticsblog, you might have a bit of credibility regarding criticism of Doc.

And you have credibility on the issue of Doc because...?

No coach is perfect.  Not Red and not Doc.  Doc is certainly entitled to some of the credit for the success Boston has had since KG and Ray got here.  He also deserves some of the blame for the team sucking before that and their struggles since Banner 17.

If I or anyone else feel there's something to criticize about Doc's coaching, we should be able to express the opinion without being treated as though we were blaspheming against God Himself.

Mike

I tend to avoid blanket criticism of Doc because there is so much more to coaching than what we see during games. Even decisions we see during games are based sometimes on information we don't have: player fatigue, player health, decisions made prior to the game to try certain line-ups in certain circumstances. We also aren't privvy to practices, relationships and other less tangible factors that all contribute to the assessment of a coach.  Doc seems to have the support and respect of his players.  He also seems to have the support and respect of Danny and owners who I think are not afraid to make changes. 

I think its great to question Doc's in-game moves but I can't see being certain that he's a bad coach.  Too much unobservable data to draw firm conclusions in my opinion.

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2012, 05:42:11 PM »

Offline celtics2

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Serious response; most likely what has to change is fans' expectations. 

If you look at the make up of our roster, it simply is not that good.  We're an old jump shooting team with one B level star  in rondo and two aging used to be stars.  We have zero I side defensive presence outside of kg.  The rest of the team is made up of just guys.

Fans that support a Team have a right to complain. This Organization has failed us long term again. It will be a long time before the Celtics become a contender. Way too many here drink the Kool Aid. Boston's becoming a very small Town. We had a Superstar take a pay cut to get out of here.

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2012, 05:43:42 PM »

Offline diddybop

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Wow. Have you ever thought that maybe plays aren't run for Jeff Green because he can't do anything outside of the following

How much of Jeff Green did you see play in OKC?  How do you have any idea what he can and cannot do if he never gets the opportunity to do it?  Do you know what I found when I compared this year's stats for Jeff Green and Marquis Daniels?  Daniels is averaging more shots per minute with the Bucks than Green is with the Celtics, and that's with noted chuckers Jennings and Ellis in Milwaukee.

Mike

I don't really get what you are trying to imply comparing Daniels and Green's shot attempts. I'm not going to sit here and act like I've dissected Greens game year in and year out. But every single year since Georgetown, Jeff has been pretty much the same guy. A few flashes, but the rest of his game is flat out mediocre. I really don't think he doesn't make other plays, not because Doc and the Celtics are holding him back, but because he can't make them. They will clear it out in the post for him, and he just freezes with the ball sometimes. They run an iso in the corner for him, and he'll drive recklessly to his right almost every time. He's not consistent enough of a shooter to run a pnr. What would you like Doc to do, let him play point forward?

To try and put the blame on Doc in regards to Jeff Green not playing that much is flat out wrong. If he showed a little bit more when on the court, his playing time would increase.

Jeff has always put up a negative +/- number every year of his career, starting with the Seattle/OKC days. I've seen enough Jeff Green to conclude that he is at best a very average basketball player (unless you think he was held back at Georgetown, In OKC and now here).

I think Doc has done fairly well when handed an above average roster in Boston. I'm not implying he's the best coach in the NBA, but he's done very good. The fact that the bulk of the current roster is underperforming is not something he should be blamed for.

But as far as getting back to the topic, it's clear the team needs to add size. And not the Varnado types of the world. Whether it's Boogie or Gortat or something else. The penetration is killing us this year, and nobody outside of a 36 year old Garnett is able to do much. Sully is getting killed with the rookie calls and can't stay on the court for an extended period of time, Bass has been below average all year, Collins is just there for some kind of size presence and Wilcox is hurt.

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2012, 07:07:50 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
We had a Superstar take a pay cut to get out of here.

I think PP and KG are no longer superstars every night.   I think the same is true of Ray.   I also think Ray is ring chasing!

Re: Something has to change. Suggestions?
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2012, 08:34:43 PM »

Offline chambers

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This is a team that's built for the playoffs.

We need to improve 3 things for me.

1)we need a defensive big that can finish around the rim and can pass. Cousins would good for this. Verajao or Gortat would be great.

2)we need to get control of our defense. Avery Bradley returning, with a healthy Rondo in the playoffs (he obviously wasn't even 75% vs the Kings, thigh is still bothering him)will be a nasty barrier against dribble penetration.
We need to combine this with the above mentioned defensive big man.
3)we need to improve our three point shooting and hit more of the easy looks we are getting.

Terry and Lee haven't shot this poorly for a while, so I'm still assuming they'll come around by the playoffs.
Who knows how well Avery will shoot. He was running hot last year, I bet he was working on his shooting while he couldn't run so I won't be surprised to see him hit those open jumpers and corner threes.

I think we're expecting too much from this team in the regular season, we know they'll take it to another level come playoff time.

The East is weak this year, very weak.
If we can get to the playoffs healthy, with our defense clicking, adding a solid big man to protect the rim, we have a decent shot of at least getting to the ECF like last year.
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