Author Topic: Would you accept this trade? (Rondo + filler for Kyrie/Varejao)  (Read 7092 times)

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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2012, 09:55:22 PM »

Offline sahara

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Probably, but Bob would have to cut his hair.

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2012, 10:38:47 PM »

Offline mgent

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I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.

I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.

It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
Are you saying CP3 is the best scoring point guard in the game?  I think it's pretty clearly Rose and Westbrook 1 and 2.  You can make an argument for either Curry or Parker ahead of Irving too.  Then Chris Paul, who should really be on the same level as Deron Williams.
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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2012, 10:59:42 PM »

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What's that saying? "In a cocaine heartbeat"? Yeah, that.

Lol, good one. Gonna have to write that one down. :D

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2012, 11:03:25 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.

I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.

It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
Are you saying CP3 is the best scoring point guard in the game?  I think it's pretty clearly Rose and Westbrook 1 and 2.  You can make an argument for either Curry or Parker ahead of Irving too.  Then Chris Paul, who should really be on the same level as Deron Williams.

I think they are just higher volume shooters. I'm pretty sure CP3 has a better PPP and ORating than any other pg. He's also really good in the clutch. His raw numbers may not blow you away, but like KG, his sabermetrics numbers are off the chart. He is far and away the best PG in the NBA and clearly and underrated scorer. I'd trust no other PG (maybe G in general... Heck, maybe player) with the game on the line.


But as for the OP, I'd trade Rondo and Lee/Bass for Irving and Varejao without a doubt.
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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2012, 10:17:43 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion.  He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo.  He's also not a great distributor.  To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings.  That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.

A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter

I'm not sold.  I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.

I am convinced that people who aren't sold on Kyrie Irving generally haven't watched him play enough.  I think his talent is that undeniable.

He's very close to already being the best offensive guard in basketball, and he's 20 years old.  He's got an amazing handle, and is incredibly efficient.  For offensive skills, I'm not sure that there are many he is lacking.



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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2012, 11:01:28 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I'd trade pretty much the entire Celtics team for Kyrie Irving and I wouldn't give it a second thought.  Kyrie Irving is a superstar.  His numbers as a rookie and now in his second year are incredible.  He was the best rookie PG since Magic last year when you account for the total package (scoring, passing, rebounding, efficiency, etc.).  He will only get better. 
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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2012, 11:29:31 AM »

Online Celtics18

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Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion.  He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo.  He's also not a great distributor.  To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings.  That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.

A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter

I'm not sold.  I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.

I am convinced that people who aren't sold on Kyrie Irving generally haven't watched him play enough.  I think his talent is that undeniable.

He's very close to already being the best offensive guard in basketball, and he's 20 years old.  He's got an amazing handle, and is incredibly efficient.  For offensive skills, I'm not sure that there are many he is lacking.



He's an extremely talented scorer.  There's no denying that.  He's got great handles (as you illustrated), he can shoot the ball, and he can score from anywhere. 

He's a good athlete, but he doesn't have elite level NBA explosiveness, speed or athleticism. 

He's still young, but his 5.5 APG to 4 T0s per game is a pretty troubling stat.  I don't even think that Russell Westbrook has ever had A/TO numbers that bad.

Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't like him as a player, I'm just saying there's no way in heck I'd trade him for Rajon Rondo. 

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2012, 11:50:24 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion.  He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo.  He's also not a great distributor.  To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings.  That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.

A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter

I'm not sold.  I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.

I am convinced that people who aren't sold on Kyrie Irving generally haven't watched him play enough.  I think his talent is that undeniable.

He's very close to already being the best offensive guard in basketball, and he's 20 years old.  He's got an amazing handle, and is incredibly efficient.  For offensive skills, I'm not sure that there are many he is lacking.



He's an extremely talented scorer.  There's no denying that.  He's got great handles (as you illustrated), he can shoot the ball, and he can score from anywhere. 

He's a good athlete, but he doesn't have elite level NBA explosiveness, speed or athleticism. 

He's still young, but his 5.5 APG to 4 T0s per game is a pretty troubling stat.  I don't even think that Russell Westbrook has ever had A/TO numbers that bad.

Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't like him as a player, I'm just saying there's no way in heck I'd trade him for Rajon Rondo.

he is playing with a bunch of role players and scrubs....and he is very young.  if he were on the celtics team right now, im sure his assists would go up and his turnovers would go down.

irving >>>> rondo

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2012, 11:51:10 AM »

Offline action781

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Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion.  He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo.  He's also not a great distributor.  To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings.  That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed

A "pretty good scorer"?  He is the top scoring point guard in the NBA right now.  And this is his second season in a row scoring a lot of points at a 46% fg clip which is awesome for a point guard, especially at that high of a volume.

A rich man's brandon jennings?  Well first of all, jennings is a heck of a player.  Second of all, Irving shoots at a much higher efficiency than Jennings.  Don't just breeze past that, it is a big deal.

Irving has all the skills to run a CP-style pick and roll offense which is exactly what playoff basketball is all about.

I'd be 60-40 on trading Rondo for Irving straight up and it would be a tough choice.  I don't think that Irving will be up to Rondo's level come this postseason, which is what leads me to think twice about that deal.  But it won't take much longer for Irving to pass him and Varejao included in the trade idea make it absolutely worth it for the present and the future.

No way Cleveland does it though.  Irving's ceiling is too high and he has so much all-star level basketball ahead of him.  Rondo probably has 4 more elite level years left in him while Kyrie has at least 10.  Kyrie's ability to shoot will extend his prime to a further age than Rondo's.
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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2012, 11:52:49 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion.  He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo.  He's also not a great distributor.  To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings.  That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed

A "pretty good scorer"?  He is the top scoring point guard in the NBA right now.  And this is his second season in a row scoring a lot of points at a 46% fg clip which is awesome for a point guard, especially at that high of a volume.

A rich man's brandon jennings?  Well first of all, jennings is a heck of a player.  Second of all, Irving shoots at a much higher efficiency than Jennings.  Don't just breeze past that, it is a big deal.

Irving has all the skills to run a CP-style pick and roll offense which is exactly what playoff basketball is all about.

I'd be 60-40 on trading Rondo for Irving straight up and it would be a tough choice.  I don't think that Irving will be up to Rondo's level come this postseason, which is what leads me to think twice about that deal.  But it won't take much longer for Irving to pass him and Varejao included in the trade idea make it absolutely worth it for the present and the future.

No way Cleveland does it though.  Irving's ceiling is too high and he has so much all-star level basketball ahead of him.  Rondo probably has 4 more elite level years left in him while Kyrie has at least 10.  Kyrie's ability to shoot will extend his prime to a further age than Rondo's.


tp for saving me the time to respond. 

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2012, 12:00:09 PM »

Offline mgent

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I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.

I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.

It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
Are you saying CP3 is the best scoring point guard in the game?  I think it's pretty clearly Rose and Westbrook 1 and 2.  You can make an argument for either Curry or Parker ahead of Irving too.  Then Chris Paul, who should really be on the same level as Deron Williams.

I think they are just higher volume shooters. I'm pretty sure CP3 has a better PPP and ORating than any other pg. He's also really good in the clutch. His raw numbers may not blow you away, but like KG, his sabermetrics numbers are off the chart. He is far and away the best PG in the NBA and clearly and underrated scorer. I'd trust no other PG (maybe G in general... Heck, maybe player) with the game on the line.


But as for the OP, I'd trade Rondo and Lee/Bass for Irving and Varejao without a doubt.
I guess you could argue that for Westbrook, but he was the 5th leading scorer last year (6th now) whereas Chris Paul spends years around the top 40.  Not for Rose though.  He gets the ball to the rim like no other in the clutch, and is less likely to pull up for the jump shot than guys like Chris Paul and LeBron.  I'd feel just as comfortable with him having the ball with the game on the line as anyone.

Irving and Curry are both significantly better shooters than Chris Paul and the two of them plus Tony Parker are all posting pretty much the same TS% and eFG% as Paul while scoring 3-7 more points and paying a much heavier price for poorer teammates.
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Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
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Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2012, 12:17:35 PM »

Offline ssspence

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No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.

Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2012, 12:22:56 PM »

Online Celtics18

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Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion.  He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo.  He's also not a great distributor.  To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings.  That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed

A "pretty good scorer"?  He is the top scoring point guard in the NBA right now.  And this is his second season in a row scoring a lot of points at a 46% fg clip which is awesome for a point guard, especially at that high of a volume.

A rich man's brandon jennings?  Well first of all, jennings is a heck of a player.  Second of all, Irving shoots at a much higher efficiency than Jennings.  Don't just breeze past that, it is a big deal.

Irving has all the skills to run a CP-style pick and roll offense which is exactly what playoff basketball is all about.

I'd be 60-40 on trading Rondo for Irving straight up and it would be a tough choice.  I don't think that Irving will be up to Rondo's level come this postseason, which is what leads me to think twice about that deal.  But it won't take much longer for Irving to pass him and Varejao included in the trade idea make it absolutely worth it for the present and the future.

No way Cleveland does it though.  Irving's ceiling is too high and he has so much all-star level basketball ahead of him.  Rondo probably has 4 more elite level years left in him while Kyrie has at least 10.  Kyrie's ability to shoot will extend his prime to a further age than Rondo's.

My intention was not to dismiss Brandon Jennings.  I agree that he's a very good player.  I also agree that Irving is probably better.   I just thought he was a reasonable comparison as another small scoring guard. 

I think it's very pessimistic to think that Rondo will stop being an elite player as soon as he hits thirty.  I'd say he has a good eight years left of being an elite player.  I guess that by that standard, I'd have to say that Irving has 14 years left of being an elite player.  However, although, Irving is very, very good right now, he hasn't quite reached that elite status yet.

I'll reiterate that my point is not that I don't like Kyrie Irving as a player, but Rajon Rondo is a top ten player in the league today.  I'm just not interested in trading him for someone who might someday reach that status. 

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2012, 12:26:11 PM »

Online Celtics18

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No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.

Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.

I seriously doubt that's the case.  Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving. 

Re: Would you accept this trade?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2012, 12:33:00 PM »

Offline action781

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I think it's very pessimistic to think that Rondo will stop being an elite player as soon as he hits thirty.  I'd say he has a good eight years left of being an elite player.  I guess that by that standard, I'd have to say that Irving has 14 years left of being an elite player.  However, although, Irving is very, very good right now, he hasn't quite reached that elite status yet.

I'll reiterate that my point is not that I don't like Kyrie Irving as a player, but Rajon Rondo is a top ten player in the league today.  I'm just not interested in trading him for someone who might someday reach that status.

It would be pessimistic if I thought so with no reason to back it.  But Rondo's game is based on athleticism.  When he hits 30, his athleticism will have begun to regress just like every other NBA superstar in the past has.

The players who are able to extend their primes are players who can change their game and mostly do it with a jumpshot.  Look at Kobe, Pierce, Kidd, Billups, etc.  All those players had very long primes and it is because when their quickness and speed dwindled, they were still able to beat their man off the dribble because they forced defenders to play them up close and honor their jumper.  If Rondo develops a jumper, surely he could extend his prime.  But I've seen little evidence of that coming.

We are all witnessing D Wade's game beginning to regress as he has hit age 30, is losing his supreme athleticism and doesn't possess the threat of a deadly jumper.  And Rondo's game is not at the level that Wade's once was.
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