Would you accept this trade? (Rondo + filler for Kyrie/Varejao)

[LarBrd33]

People don't understand how good he is.  Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers.  Those two shot like 40% as rookies.  He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league.  It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention.  Incredible.

Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.

I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.

I think he might be better than Rondo already.  Hard to say.  The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing.  It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.   

Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston?  Maybe

Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line?  No.

Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.

To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment.  Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency.  He's having the best season of his career so far.

It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
 

Is it, though? 

Is it?

Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit.  It does take talent.  That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now.  Our offense is built around his weaknesses.  He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy.  He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.

ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.

Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.

Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.

On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%. 

Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8

That's pathetic.  Most of those guys are total dog crap players.  This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller.  Nobody on that team has double digit career averages.  The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default.  It's a team of garbage.  It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.


Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast.  He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.   

Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5

In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving.  Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does.  9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up).    Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers?  No. 

Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists?  Don't know.  You tell me.   Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno.  You tell me.   Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums?  Absolutely not.  He's not capable of that kind of shooting.

I love Rondo.  This is his best season ever.  I'd trade him for Irving without question.

You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.

Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three.  He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster.  Next question?

Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?

Waiters is the #4 pick.  K.  He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right?  How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three.  That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...

You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James.  Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James?   I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.     

Dude couldn't be more overrated right now.  Srsly.

maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.

Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.

His numbers aren't climbing.  Are you just making stuff up?  For the month of December he's averaging 12 points with a dreadful 35% shooting... a ghastly 16% from three. 



Lol sorry I couldn't help myself.

So tell me, would you refuse to trade Wilcox for Varejao?

Varejao is a more valuable player for a number of reasons ... but if we're purely talking scoring... Varejao has career scoring average of 7 points on 51% shooting... Wilcox has a career scoring average of 8.5 points on 54% shooting.

Maybe I was using a little hyperbole there.. but maybe not.  You probably get my point... Cleveland has MAYBE 3 "efficient" scorers for Irving to pass the ball to... he takes 7 more shots a night and manages to average 5.5 assists in spite of his horrible supporting cast.    Meanwhile, Boston has 10 "efficient" scorers for Rondo to pass the ball to.  He takes 7 less shots a night and averages 12 assists... at least in part, because of his excellent (at least in terms of scoring) supporting cast.

Good debate hpantazo.  Work is slow today with everyone out for the Holidays.  Thanks for the back-and-forth.   

[hpantazo]

People don't understand how good he is.  Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers.  Those two shot like 40% as rookies.  He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league.  It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention.  Incredible.

Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.

I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.

I think he might be better than Rondo already.  Hard to say.  The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing.  It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.   

Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston?  Maybe

Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line?  No.

Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.

To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment.  Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency.  He's having the best season of his career so far.

It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
 

Is it, though? 

Is it?

Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit.  It does take talent.  That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now.  Our offense is built around his weaknesses.  He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy.  He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.

ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.

Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.

Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.

On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%. 

Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8

That's pathetic.  Most of those guys are total dog crap players.  This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller.  Nobody on that team has double digit career averages.  The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default.  It's a team of garbage.  It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.


Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast.  He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.   

Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5

In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving.  Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does.  9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up).    Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers?  No. 

Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists?  Don't know.  You tell me.   Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno.  You tell me.   Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums?  Absolutely not.  He's not capable of that kind of shooting.

I love Rondo.  This is his best season ever.  I'd trade him for Irving without question.

You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.

Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three.  He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster.  Next question?

Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?

Waiters is the #4 pick.  K.  He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right?  How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three.  That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...

You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James.  Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James?   I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.     

Dude couldn't be more overrated right now.  Srsly.

maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.

Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.

His numbers aren't climbing.  Are you just making stuff up?  For the month of December he's averaging 12 points with a dreadful 35% shooting... a ghastly 16% from three. 



Lol sorry I couldn't help myself.

So tell me, would you refuse to trade Wilcox for Varejao?

Varejao is a more valuable player for a number of reasons ... but if we're purely talking scoring... Varejao has career scoring average of 7 points on 51% shooting... Wilcox has a career scoring average of 8.5 points on 54% shooting.

Maybe I was using a little hyperbole there.. but maybe not.  You probably get my point... Cleveland has MAYBE 3 "efficient" scorers for Irving to pass the ball to... he takes 7 more shots a night and manages to average 5.5 assists in spite of his horrible supporting cast.    Meanwhile, Boston has 10 "efficient" scorers for Rondo to pass the ball to.  He takes 7 less shots a night and averages 12 assists... at least in part, because of his excellent (at least in terms of scoring) supporting cast.

Good debate hpantazo.  Work is slow today with everyone out for the Holidays.  Thanks for the back-and-forth. 

Fair enough, although you can argue that playing with Rondo makes players more efficient scorers. Getting open dunks off Rondo's passes and penetration is much more efficient than posting up on the block or taking a contested jumper for example.

[Celtics18]

It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.

You have been making a lot of really weird statements in this thread.  It's far more absurd to think that rondo would shoot 40% form three and 80% from the line.  He can't even shoot 40% on wide open threes.

If Irving changed his game and decided to pass a lot instead of score, he'd likely give out 10+ assists per game on a team as good as the celtics.  But that wouldn't benefit his current team, his team needs him to score the ball, so that's what he does.  Assists are as much about mental mindset as ability.  Rondo has a very pass-first mindset (in addition to an excellent ability to pass), which is wonderful and why he racks up so many assists.  But this is something a player can change about his game.  Ability to hit free throws is not a mindset, it is pure ability.

I'm not saying Irving *would* average 12 assists/game (he probably wouldn't), but he certainly *could* more easily than Rondo could shoot 80% from the stripe.  Because one stat is about mindset and what the team needs and the other is about pure ability.

Only 21 times in the history of the game has anyone averaged more than 11.5 APG.  If Rondo can stay above that mark for this season, he'll join Magic Johnson and John Stockton as the only players to have done it more than once. 

It's an insult to the art of passing that so many of you seem to think that if some of these chuckers out there just stopped shooting so much and passing more, that all of a sudden they'd be in league with passers like Johnson, Stockton, and Rondo. 

[Who]

I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.

I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.

[LarBrd33]

It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.

You have been making a lot of really weird statements in this thread.  It's far more absurd to think that rondo would shoot 40% form three and 80% from the line.  He can't even shoot 40% on wide open threes.

If Irving changed his game and decided to pass a lot instead of score, he'd likely give out 10+ assists per game on a team as good as the celtics.  But that wouldn't benefit his current team, his team needs him to score the ball, so that's what he does.  Assists are as much about mental mindset as ability.  Rondo has a very pass-first mindset (in addition to an excellent ability to pass), which is wonderful and why he racks up so many assists.  But this is something a player can change about his game.  Ability to hit free throws is not a mindset, it is pure ability.

I'm not saying Irving *would* average 12 assists/game (he probably wouldn't), but he certainly *could* more easily than Rondo could shoot 80% from the stripe.  Because one stat is about mindset and what the team needs and the other is about pure ability.

Only 21 times in the history of the game has anyone averaged more than 11.5 APG.  If Rondo can stay above that mark for this season, he'll join Magic Johnson and John Stockton as the only players to have done it more than once. 

It's an insult to the art of passing that so many of you seem to think that if some of these chuckers out there just stopped shooting so much and passing more, that all of a sudden they'd be in league with passers like Johnson, Stockton, and Rondo.

What Rondo is doing is great.  Only Chris Paul is having a better season than he is right now. 

But it's fair to point out that when Stockton was racking up those assists he was also averaging 15-17 points... when Magic was doing it, he was averaging 16-24 points.  Rondo came into this season with the expectation of being one of our top scorers and is only averaging 13.7 per night.  It's part of the reason Magic recently dogged him (a bit unfair, I think)... HE believes that Rondo needs to shoot more and pass less.   

Again, what Rondo is doing is fantastic.  His best season to date.  He's at his peak.  I can't really argue with how he's playing... through 24 games he's the 2nd best point guard in the league.  But if I had an opportunity to trade Rondo for 20 year old Irving... I'd absolutely do it.  I think Irving could have a MASSIVE career...  Do I think it's possible we'd take a tiptoe back this season if the hypothetical trade happened?  Yes.  That's possible.  I think Irving's shooting would actually open things up considerably for everyone else, but it's certainly possible we'd take a tiptoe backwards.  But i think the fact that Irving is still locked into his rookie contract for couple seasons would make up for that.  It would give us a bit more flexibility to build around Irving in the hypothetical scenario.

Doesn't matter regardless.  Cavs would never do it.  No way is Irving going anywhere. 

[LarBrd33]

I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.

I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.

So you'll think he'll end up a champion like Wade or an MVP like Rose... that sort of player... as opposed to a Jason Kidd or Rondo type.  Fair enough.  When you're that elite at scoring... you should score. 

[Celtics18]

[quote author=LarBrd33 link=topic=61229.msg1359919#msg1359919   

Again, what Rondo is doing is fantastic.  His best season to date.  He's at his peak.  I can't really argue with how he's playing... through 24 games he's the 2nd best point guard in the league.

[/quote]

I'm hoping that after tonight's game, he's back to being the best point guard in the league. 

[Roy H.]

I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.

I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I'll take 26 ppg and 7.5 assists per game from my PG any day, especially if he's scoring ultra-efficiently.

[jdz101]

I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.

I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I'll take 26 ppg and 7.5 assists per game from my PG any day, especially if he's scoring ultra-efficiently.

And has ice-water in his veins in the clutch.

[Roy H.]

Facts about Kyrie Irving:

* First rookie since Tim Duncan, and the first guard since Michael Jordan, to average 18.0 points and have a .565 TS%
* He joined Oscar Robinson, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson and LeBron James as the only No. 1 overall picks to average at least 18.0 points and 5.0 assists in their first year
* Kyrie Irving had a better rookie year than Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Rajon Rondo, Steve Nash, and arguably, Chris Paul. Link

“When we first started talking about Kyrie, the first comparison that came to mind was Chris Paul,” Scott, who coach Paul in New Orleans, said. “But one thing I can say about the two: Kyrie came in as a 19-year-old; Chris came in at 20. And at that particular point, Kyrie’s probably a better basketball player than Chris Paul was at this early stage of his career. It says a lot about where Kyrie is and what potential he has a point guard.”

[Roy H.]

I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.

I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I'll take 26 ppg and 7.5 assists per game from my PG any day, especially if he's scoring ultra-efficiently.

And has ice-water in his veins in the clutch.

Yeah.

[fitzhickey]

And he's half Australian. I would pull the trigger

[Kane3387]

Yup. If not next year, then the one after, Kyrie will be better then Rondo. He's an incredible talent.

[vinnie]

Yes

[Eja117]

If you buy the premise that Rondo and Irving are about equal you have to keep in mind that from this point forward Irving is likely to play twice as many years. So it's like 2 Rondos for one. It's like getting a Rondo and then when Rondo is done someone says "Here. Let me hand you another Rondo"

I don't buy that Irving is better. I don't think he's as good a defender or a particularly healthy guy. But he's very good and right now Anderson is the best rebounder in the league which is exactly what we need. Say KG goes down in the playoffs. Or now for like 20 games. You're screwed. With Anderson you might get a ring. Did anyone see Bass made to look like he was standing in cement against Blake Griffin the other night?  I don't know if I want to add Sully but basically I lean yes on this trade idea. I don't think Cleveland does it.