Author Topic: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad  (Read 5931 times)

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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2012, 01:00:23 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The guy is paid what he is worth on the market in the NBA.
No.

He is paid what someone is willing to pay him. His worth is determined from his performance and his performance thus far says he was vastly overpaid and not worth the contract.

Semantics.  There is market value, and then there is your version of worth.  Green makes around market value.
No its not really semantics because no one set the market for Jeff Green. Heck, except for some rumors that most people are pretty sure that came from Green's agent, there isn't one single confirmed report of an offer for Jeff green anywhere near what he received.

Not one!

Like the Red Sox used to do in the 90's, the Celtics in this case bid basically against themselves and set the market for Green.

Whether he is actually worth the ridiculous market that the Celtics established for him is yet to be seen.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2012, 01:03:31 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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A $40 mil back-up for PP?

This is what dumb teams do. And why they stink in many cases for decades, not years. Because typically, smart organizations don't ever go where you just went. You sign impact players to big deals, and role players to intelligent short reasonable contracts.... because they're replaceable.

And if you're not really good, let it go -- you're more likely to get good by being bad then you are by being mediocre. 

Only All-stars are worth >mid-level. No Bargnanis. No Ty Thomases. No Villenuevas. For Pete's sake, Barbosa is a better basketball player than Green.

I challenge anyone to suggest what they feel the Celtics would be missing without Green. If the only answer is "a back-up to Pierce", or even worse "a SF once Pierce heads towards retirement", then you know how bad the signing is.

Plenty of non all-stars are worth more than the mid level.  I'll throw out a ton:  Tyson chandler, zach randolph, al jefferson, david west, ibaka, david lee, joakim noah, nic batum, varejao, kevin martin, milsap, ryan anderson, brandon jennings, ty lawson, kyle lowry, gortat, mike conley, carlos boozer, brook lopez, monta ellis,......

Those players would mostly be considered bargains in the 7-12 mil range.  I think the hope in the signing was that jeff green could become that caliber of player and be worth his contract.  So far he has not lived up to that of course, but i think there's still a chance he could be in the lower tier of that caliber player in a year or 2.
Great list of players but I think where you and some other might disagree is whether Jeff Green deserves to be mentioned as being equal quality as those players.

I think those players are on the fringe of being All-Star talent. To me, Jeff Green is on the fringe of having the ability to actually start in the NBA.

There's a fairly decent difference there IMHO.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2012, 01:04:50 PM »

Offline Chris

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The guy is paid what he is worth on the market in the NBA.
No.

He is paid what someone is willing to pay him. His worth is determined from his performance and his performance thus far says he was vastly overpaid and not worth the contract.

Semantics.  There is market value, and then there is your version of worth.  Green makes around market value.
No its not really semantics because no one set the market for Jeff Green. Heck, except for some rumors that most people are pretty sure that came from Green's agent, there isn't one single confirmed report of an offer for Jeff green anywhere near what he received.

Not one!

Like the Red Sox used to do in the 90's, the Celtics in this case bid basically against themselves and set the market for Green.

Whether he is actually worth the ridiculous market that the Celtics established for him is yet to be seen.

Are you his agent?

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2012, 01:08:23 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The thing about Jeff Green is that I do think he has 35+ minute a night type talent.  We've seen flashes of it, but we won't see it consistently until he can get those minutes.   


This is where we differ. I think you show whether you have the ability to get 35 minutes a game buy playing at your best consistently for less time. Fact is that stats prove out that no matter what amount of minutes Jeff green gets, his level of performance doesn't get better or more consistent.

Given starters minutes in OKC he produced almost the exact same per minute stats and he was reknown for being wildly inconsistent in his effort and production and was never a good rebounder.

Nothing has changed. He's just playing less.


Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2012, 01:10:52 PM »

Offline soap07

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Not trying to be a troll, but can someone find me one - just one - other team that was interested in Jeff Green this offseason? I know his agent said there were like 10 other teams or something that were interested  - can anyone provide any proof of one of those teams?

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2012, 01:14:05 PM »

Offline Chris

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Not trying to be a troll, but can someone find me one - just one - other team that was interested in Jeff Green this offseason? I know his agent said there were like 10 other teams or something that were interested  - can anyone provide any proof of one of those teams?

Can anyone provide proof of interest of any team in any player, unless the GM comes out and says it? 

Rumors that are reported are generally just leaked by the agents anyways, so they hold no more water than Green's agent saying 10 other teams were interested.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2012, 01:22:05 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Not trying to be a troll, but can someone find me one - just one - other team that was interested in Jeff Green this offseason? I know his agent said there were like 10 other teams or something that were interested  - can anyone provide any proof of one of those teams?

Can anyone provide proof of interest of any team in any player, unless the GM comes out and says it? 

Rumors that are reported are generally just leaked by the agents anyways, so they hold no more water than Green's agent saying 10 other teams were interested.
Really. Seems to me Wojo is pretty fairly well connected and gets a lot of his numbers of what people are offering players from different teams fairly accurate.

It was reported the Celtics offered Ray twice the money as Miami and that was later confirmed by Danny and Doc.

That's just one example of reports coming out from multiple teams. Reports of other players getting multiple offers, what the offer is and the amount of years are rather common place

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2012, 01:22:19 PM »

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The guy is paid what he is worth on the market in the NBA.
No.

He is paid what someone is willing to pay him. His worth is determined from his performance and his performance thus far says he was vastly overpaid and not worth the contract.

Jeff Green is not in a position on this team to give us $8 or $9 million worth of production as long as Paul Pierce is the starting small forward.  That's just reality, as far as I can see it.

That's not a negative comment towards Jeff or towards Doc or even towards Danny.  I'm still happy with the signing.  I just think we need to be patient.  I understand that patience is not something that sports fans generally do well.  It's "give me $9 million worth of basketball today, or you're a bum!!!"

Depending on how long the captain can keep playing like an all star,  Jeff's time will come either next season or the following season.  Until then, he'll have to keep learning how to play as a 20-25 mpg sub.  He's shown some signs that he can play that role really well, and he's had some other nights that have been stinkers.  That's how it goes for bench guys. 

I'm willing to wait.
Does a player really have to learn how to play a certain amount of minutes?  I don't get it.  Why can't he just learn to play better and give a better effort whenever he's on the court?

I guess my point is that it's hard to expect consistency even from players getting starter's minutes in the NBA.  When you are coming off the bench for short stretches, getting @ 20 minutes a game, it's even harder to be consistent.  This isn't just the case for Jeff Green, but for almost all NBA players. 

He's had some good nights and he's had some bad nights.  The same can be said for Jason Terry, Courtney Lee, Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, and Chris Wilcox.  Those guys are the role players.  I don't expect them to play like top flight NBA players every night. 

The thing about Jeff Green is that I do think he has 35+ minute a night type talent.  We've seen flashes of it, but we won't see it consistently until he can get those minutes.  And, that probably won't be this year (maybe not even next year). 

Again, I'm willing to be patient, but I understand the predilection not to be.
I don't buy that.  Can you name a couple current good nba starters who would suck coming off the bench?  I can't think of any.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2012, 01:56:50 PM »

Offline ssspence

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A $40 mil back-up for PP?

This is what dumb teams do. And why they stink in many cases for decades, not years. Because typically, smart organizations don't ever go where you just went. You sign impact players to big deals, and role players to intelligent short reasonable contracts.... because they're replaceable.

And if you're not really good, let it go -- you're more likely to get good by being bad then you are by being mediocre. 

Only All-stars are worth >mid-level. No Bargnanis. No Ty Thomases. No Villenuevas. For Pete's sake, Barbosa is a better basketball player than Green.

I challenge anyone to suggest what they feel the Celtics would be missing without Green. If the only answer is "a back-up to Pierce", or even worse "a SF once Pierce heads towards retirement", then you know how bad the signing is.

Plenty of non all-stars are worth more than the mid level.  I'll throw out a ton:  Tyson chandler, zach randolph, al jefferson, david west, ibaka, david lee, joakim noah, nic batum, varejao, kevin martin, milsap, ryan anderson, brandon jennings, ty lawson, kyle lowry, gortat, mike conley, carlos boozer, brook lopez, monta ellis,......

Those players would mostly be considered bargains in the 7-12 mil range.  I think the hope in the signing was that jeff green could become that caliber of player and be worth his contract.  So far he has not lived up to that of course, but i think there's still a chance he could be in the lower tier of that caliber player in a year or 2.
Great list of players but I think where you and some other might disagree is whether Jeff Green deserves to be mentioned as being equal quality as those players.

I think those players are on the fringe of being All-Star talent. To me, Jeff Green is on the fringe of having the ability to actually start in the NBA.

There's a fairly decent difference there IMHO.

Agreed. This is a list of players who have reached All-star teams, are starting NBA 5s or DPOY candidates. There are also a number of players either a) making less than Green (including some still on their rookie deals -- not sure why you listed them), or b) who should clearly not make the money you're talking about.

i have no interest in paying Ellis, Lee, Boozer or Batum cornerstone money -- not if i'm trying to win a championship.

Green is clearly a step down from virtually the entire list, and regardless the question remains: what would this team be missing without Jeff Green? Every time the guys scores 15 points -- to go along with his lazy rebounding and poor defense -- there's a new article about him "emerging". It's like a bad joke. 




Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2012, 02:05:18 PM »

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We need to get rid of Bass, bring in another quality defensive big man who can play the 5 and then give Jeff Green 30+ mpg as a bench combo forward, a la Al Harrington. 

I think that's the best way to maximize his talent alongside Rondo/KG/Pierce.
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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2012, 02:16:27 PM »

Online moiso

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A $40 mil back-up for PP?

This is what dumb teams do. And why they stink in many cases for decades, not years. Because typically, smart organizations don't ever go where you just went. You sign impact players to big deals, and role players to intelligent short reasonable contracts.... because they're replaceable.

And if you're not really good, let it go -- you're more likely to get good by being bad then you are by being mediocre. 

Only All-stars are worth >mid-level. No Bargnanis. No Ty Thomases. No Villenuevas. For Pete's sake, Barbosa is a better basketball player than Green.

I challenge anyone to suggest what they feel the Celtics would be missing without Green. If the only answer is "a back-up to Pierce", or even worse "a SF once Pierce heads towards retirement", then you know how bad the signing is.

Plenty of non all-stars are worth more than the mid level.  I'll throw out a ton:  Tyson chandler, zach randolph, al jefferson, david west, ibaka, david lee, joakim noah, nic batum, varejao, kevin martin, milsap, ryan anderson, brandon jennings, ty lawson, kyle lowry, gortat, mike conley, carlos boozer, brook lopez, monta ellis,......

Those players would mostly be considered bargains in the 7-12 mil range.  I think the hope in the signing was that jeff green could become that caliber of player and be worth his contract.  So far he has not lived up to that of course, but i think there's still a chance he could be in the lower tier of that caliber player in a year or 2.
Great list of players but I think where you and some other might disagree is whether Jeff Green deserves to be mentioned as being equal quality as those players.

I think those players are on the fringe of being All-Star talent. To me, Jeff Green is on the fringe of having the ability to actually start in the NBA.

There's a fairly decent difference there IMHO.

Agreed. This is a list of players who have reached All-star teams, are starting NBA 5s or DPOY candidates. There are also a number of players either a) making less than Green (including some still on their rookie deals -- not sure why you listed them), or b) who should clearly not make the money you're talking about.

i have no interest in paying Ellis, Lee, Boozer or Batum cornerstone money -- not if i'm trying to win a championship.

Green is clearly a step down from virtually the entire list, and regardless the question remains: what would this team be missing without Jeff Green? Every time the guys scores 15 points -- to go along with his lazy rebounding and poor defense -- there's a new article about him "emerging". It's like a bad joke.
That's the truth.  It's almost comical at this point.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2012, 02:33:17 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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The thing about Jeff Green is that I do think he has 35+ minute a night type talent.  We've seen flashes of it, but we won't see it consistently until he can get those minutes.   


This is where we differ. I think you show whether you have the ability to get 35 minutes a game buy playing at your best consistently for less time. Fact is that stats prove out that no matter what amount of minutes Jeff green gets, his level of performance doesn't get better or more consistent.

Given starters minutes in OKC he produced almost the exact same per minute stats and he was reknown for being wildly inconsistent in his effort and production and was never a good rebounder.

Nothing has changed. He's just playing less.

Luol Deng, Gerald Wallace, and Thaddeus Young are a small sampling of players whose numbers are fairly similar to Jeff Green's on a per 36 minute basis.  Those guys happen to be getting bigger minutes, though, so they can put up better overall numbers. 

Jeff's numbers are slightly down from his career averages this season, particularly his rebounding numbers, but they aren't far off, and they are roughly what we should expect from him in 20 something minutes per contest.  There's definitely some room for improvement, though; improvements that I think Jeff can make.   

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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
Can anyone provide proof of interest of any team in any player, unless the GM comes out and says it? 

Rumors that are reported are generally just leaked by the agents anyways, so they hold no more water than Green's agent saying 10 other teams were interested.

It doesn't seem odd to you at all? It seems every free agent is connected to a couple specific teams in the media. Anyone from Jermaine O'Neal (who was thought to be going to the Lakers, before the Suns), Matt Barnes to the higher echelon players. The agent didn't leak a single specific team? Not one other GM mentioned to a single reporter anonymously, 'Oh hey, Jeff Green is on our radar."?



Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2012, 04:00:10 PM »

Offline Chris

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Not trying to be a troll, but can someone find me one - just one - other team that was interested in Jeff Green this offseason? I know his agent said there were like 10 other teams or something that were interested  - can anyone provide any proof of one of those teams?

Can anyone provide proof of interest of any team in any player, unless the GM comes out and says it? 

Rumors that are reported are generally just leaked by the agents anyways, so they hold no more water than Green's agent saying 10 other teams were interested.
Really. Seems to me Wojo is pretty fairly well connected and gets a lot of his numbers of what people are offering players from different teams fairly accurate.

It was reported the Celtics offered Ray twice the money as Miami and that was later confirmed by Danny and Doc.

That's just one example of reports coming out from multiple teams. Reports of other players getting multiple offers, what the offer is and the amount of years are rather common place

Right, that's because the agent leaks it.  Green's agent never leaked it. 

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2012, 04:07:18 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Right, that's because the agent leaks it.  Green's agent never leaked it.

I'm confused. We know for a fact that Jeff Green's agent didn't leak anything about the contract negotiations to the media?

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