Author Topic: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad  (Read 5995 times)

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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2012, 10:06:36 AM »

Offline action781

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When Jeff Green was on his little 5 to 6 game hot streak 10 days ago, this blog boomed with the "Green needs to start", "Time to sit Pierce", "Free Jeff Green" and al sorts of other ridiculous threads.

When I posted in those threads that Pierce was still, even at 35 years old a better all around player than Jeff Green, that Jeff Green was a passive player that would go through wild ups and downs in consistency and that Jeff Green was simply doing what Jeff Green does, which is play well for a few games and then disappear for a few, a lot of Jeff Green fans jumped all over me and some others who said the same thing.

But here we are after 25 games and Jeff Green is going through his normal roller coaster ride through the season. He started off slow and passive. He was a horrid rebounder who couldn't score and who's defense was just plain bad. Then the ball started dropping some, he played with confidence and played much better for a few games.

But that confidence breeds complacency in Jeff Green and now we see the result. Over his last five games he's been back to the passive, non-rebounding, poor shooting, bad defense Jeff Green. In that time he has shot 34% from the field, 30% from 3PT land, he didn't shoot more than one free throw in 4 of those 5 games and averaged just 8 PPG and 3 RPG in his usual 23 MPG.

$9 million a year, 4 year contracts are given out to performers that will give you a consistent, everyday, effort and production. That has never been Jeff Green's calling card. He's playing exactly like Jeff Green has always played. Its the reason OKC would give him the money he wanted and its why Danny Ainge should have given him a large, you have to earn it, one year deal and not the contract he got.

  And if Green said no, Danny should have let him walk?
Absolutely.
Under "normal" circumstances, yes.  But in the case where we are in all out compete now mode and we had no other options to sign a SF, I think we had no choice but to give Green almost whatever he wanted.

You can't spend $60M (committed annually for about 2-3 years) on a team with a glaring hole and be too stubborn to give up that extra $8M per year to fill that hole and solidify what management believes to be contention for a championship.

Also, Chris mentioned the salary filler to be possibly used in another deal.
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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2012, 10:06:48 AM »

Online Kane3387

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When Jeff Green was on his little 5 to 6 game hot streak 10 days ago, this blog boomed with the "Green needs to start", "Time to sit Pierce", "Free Jeff Green" and al sorts of other ridiculous threads.

When I posted in those threads that Pierce was still, even at 35 years old a better all around player than Jeff Green, that Jeff Green was a passive player that would go through wild ups and downs in consistency and that Jeff Green was simply doing what Jeff Green does, which is play well for a few games and then disappear for a few, a lot of Jeff Green fans jumped all over me and some others who said the same thing.

But here we are after 25 games and Jeff Green is going through his normal roller coaster ride through the season. He started off slow and passive. He was a horrid rebounder who couldn't score and who's defense was just plain bad. Then the ball started dropping some, he played with confidence and played much better for a few games.

But that confidence breeds complacency in Jeff Green and now we see the result. Over his last five games he's been back to the passive, non-rebounding, poor shooting, bad defense Jeff Green. In that time he has shot 34% from the field, 30% from 3PT land, he didn't shoot more than one free throw in 4 of those 5 games and averaged just 8 PPG and 3 RPG in his usual 23 MPG.

$9 million a year, 4 year contracts are given out to performers that will give you a consistent, everyday, effort and production. That has never been Jeff Green's calling card. He's playing exactly like Jeff Green has always played. Its the reason OKC would give him the money he wanted and its why Danny Ainge should have given him a large, you have to earn it, one year deal and not the contract he got.

  And if Green said no, Danny should have let him walk?
Absolutely.

  So who's the backup sf, Joseph or Lee?

Pietrus = I think he would've come back if Green were not here. Since there were available minutes and good role for him to play.

  Maybe. At the time his agent made it pretty clear he didn't want to sign for the money we could offer.

Yeah we didn't just have 9 million laying around to sign anyone. Pietrus at the time was not willing to play for a vet. min. deal.

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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2012, 10:08:25 AM »

Online Kane3387

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I refuse to make a true judgement on Green's contract until the end of this season.

For one thing to see if he can become an important part of the team...but perhaps even more importantly, to see whether he can be used in as an asset in a trade.

Because here's the thing.  If they can use him, even as the salary ballast (assuming they don't need to include more value for someone to take him on), then Danny created an asset out of thin air by resigning him. 

If he walked, they not only lose any chance of his production, but they also lose that salary slot.

^^

Completely agree with the analysis above. Other teams valued Green enough that there were similar offers out there for him; otherwise he doesn't get this deal.

Wouldn't surprise me too much if he were traded.

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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2012, 10:09:55 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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When Jeff Green was on his little 5 to 6 game hot streak 10 days ago, this blog boomed with the "Green needs to start", "Time to sit Pierce", "Free Jeff Green" and al sorts of other ridiculous threads.

When I posted in those threads that Pierce was still, even at 35 years old a better all around player than Jeff Green, that Jeff Green was a passive player that would go through wild ups and downs in consistency and that Jeff Green was simply doing what Jeff Green does, which is play well for a few games and then disappear for a few, a lot of Jeff Green fans jumped all over me and some others who said the same thing.

But here we are after 25 games and Jeff Green is going through his normal roller coaster ride through the season. He started off slow and passive. He was a horrid rebounder who couldn't score and who's defense was just plain bad. Then the ball started dropping some, he played with confidence and played much better for a few games.

But that confidence breeds complacency in Jeff Green and now we see the result. Over his last five games he's been back to the passive, non-rebounding, poor shooting, bad defense Jeff Green. In that time he has shot 34% from the field, 30% from 3PT land, he didn't shoot more than one free throw in 4 of those 5 games and averaged just 8 PPG and 3 RPG in his usual 23 MPG.

$9 million a year, 4 year contracts are given out to performers that will give you a consistent, everyday, effort and production. That has never been Jeff Green's calling card. He's playing exactly like Jeff Green has always played. Its the reason OKC would give him the money he wanted and its why Danny Ainge should have given him a large, you have to earn it, one year deal and not the contract he got.

  And if Green said no, Danny should have let him walk?
Absolutely.

  So who's the backup sf, Joseph or Lee?
Honestly don't remember who was available. If the Celtics weren't committed to Jeff early on my guess is after solidifying the SG position after Ray left, back up SF would have been their next priority.

  Solidifying the sg position used up the MLE and a sign and trade. You'd be limited to vet min players.

Yep that's the issue.

I refuse to make a true judgement on Green's contract until the end of this season.

For one thing to see if he can become an important part of the team...but perhaps even more importantly, to see whether he can be used in as an asset in a trade.

Because here's the thing.  If they can use him, even as the salary ballast (assuming they don't need to include more value for someone to take him on), then Danny created an asset out of thin air by resigning him. 

If he walked, they not only lose any chance of his production, but they also lose that salary slot. 

I couldn't agree more.

I think people are going to need to realize with this team how it's constructed numbers are going to vary.  In particular, I think Terry and Green will have numbers that will fluctuate quite a bit.  It's going to be that way as a result of our depth and how our offense is constructed.

I'm not [dang]ing Green because of his numbers.


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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2012, 10:15:41 AM »

Offline action781

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As for the issue of whether "Doc is putting him in a position to succeed and live up to his contract", I think that issue is confused.  This isn't Doc's fault.  There doesn't exist a position on the celtics team for Jeff Green to live up to his contract right now.  I agree with many that he needs consistent minutes and role to give consistent production and "succeed".  But he needs these minutes at SF, as that is his best position.  Those minutes don't exist there.  It doesn't matter how well he plays, those minutes can't come at the expense of Paul Pierce.

So I don't believe it's Jeff's fault nor Doc's fault - I think we just have to wait until Jeff gets the opportunity to play to his potential because that opportunity plainly doesn't exist right now.

But as I expect many to respond with, I already agree, Jeff so far has not shown me anything that makes me think he's going to live up to the contract when he does get the opportunity (or even earned that opportunity really).  But things can change and I won't judge until that happens (or possibly is traded)
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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2012, 10:15:54 AM »

Offline Chris

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I refuse to make a true judgement on Green's contract until the end of this season.

For one thing to see if he can become an important part of the team...but perhaps even more importantly, to see whether he can be used in as an asset in a trade.

Because here's the thing.  If they can use him, even as the salary ballast (assuming they don't need to include more value for someone to take him on), then Danny created an asset out of thin air by resigning him. 

If he walked, they not only lose any chance of his production, but they also lose that salary slot.

And just to add on to my own post (I am coming up with this theory on the fly...and it is making me feel a heck of a lot better about the C's situation), the idea of untradable contracts for players that are still productive is quickly disappearing.

As Atlanta showed us last year, when they were able to unload a couple contracts that were at least in Green's range of overpayment (Johnson and Williams), without giving up extra value to sweeten the deal, in todays NBA, one teams trash is another teams treasure. 


Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2012, 10:24:03 AM »

Offline action781

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I refuse to make a true judgement on Green's contract until the end of this season.

For one thing to see if he can become an important part of the team...but perhaps even more importantly, to see whether he can be used in as an asset in a trade.

Because here's the thing.  If they can use him, even as the salary ballast (assuming they don't need to include more value for someone to take him on), then Danny created an asset out of thin air by resigning him. 

If he walked, they not only lose any chance of his production, but they also lose that salary slot.

And just to add on to my own post (I am coming up with this theory on the fly...and it is making me feel a heck of a lot better about the C's situation), the idea of untradable contracts for players that are still productive is quickly disappearing.

As Atlanta showed us last year, when they were able to unload a couple contracts that were at least in Green's range of overpayment (Johnson and Williams), without giving up extra value to sweeten the deal, in todays NBA, one teams trash is another teams treasure.

Somewhat of a good point.  But I'm not sure if it is really "quickly disappearing" as it only applies to certain teams.  Brooklyn, NYK, LAL will take on any contract because they have no spending limits outside of what is legal.  Almost every other team either chooses to or is forced to exercise fiscal prudence. 

That's why atlanta was able to trade away joe cool.  They can afford to pay whatever price tag they want and are allowed to for star production.  And I'm not really sure why the heck utah took on marvin williams.  I think his 2 years is different from 4 years of jeff green though.  The shortened contracts in the CBA is helping eliminate some of these previously untradeable contracts I think.
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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2012, 10:39:29 AM »

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Love Green as a player, I just think he is in a bad situation for his talents. At 9 mil a year for four years on any team where he could be starting and get minutes I think that is very fair. However, with the Celts he isnt going to be as productive because he isnt going to get the minutes he needs to showcase his game. Its just the type of player he is. In result, for the Celtics his contract looks bad for the role he is being asked to play.
You see, this just isn't true. His per 36 minute rates are just about identical now than when he was starting and playing 36 MPG in OKC. All more minutes do is give him proportionally the same stats he always had. And he gets those stats from being really good for stretches of games and then disappearing for stretches of games.

He is the same animal he always was and that animal isn't worth his contract or a starting job on a title contender unless he is a fourth option offensively and doesn't have to be relied upon.

Never said titled contender. There are probably 15 to maybe even 20 teams that would give Green this contract and be perfectly happy with it. These teams are all lottery bound but I bet would still give Green this contract.
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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2012, 10:46:13 AM »

Offline ssspence

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When Jeff Green was on his little 5 to 6 game hot streak 10 days ago, this blog boomed with the "Green needs to start", "Time to sit Pierce", "Free Jeff Green" and al sorts of other ridiculous threads.

When I posted in those threads that Pierce was still, even at 35 years old a better all around player than Jeff Green, that Jeff Green was a passive player that would go through wild ups and downs in consistency and that Jeff Green was simply doing what Jeff Green does, which is play well for a few games and then disappear for a few, a lot of Jeff Green fans jumped all over me and some others who said the same thing.

But here we are after 25 games and Jeff Green is going through his normal roller coaster ride through the season. He started off slow and passive. He was a horrid rebounder who couldn't score and who's defense was just plain bad. Then the ball started dropping some, he played with confidence and played much better for a few games.

But that confidence breeds complacency in Jeff Green and now we see the result. Over his last five games he's been back to the passive, non-rebounding, poor shooting, bad defense Jeff Green. In that time he has shot 34% from the field, 30% from 3PT land, he didn't shoot more than one free throw in 4 of those 5 games and averaged just 8 PPG and 3 RPG in his usual 23 MPG.

$9 million a year, 4 year contracts are given out to performers that will give you a consistent, everyday, effort and production. That has never been Jeff Green's calling card. He's playing exactly like Jeff Green has always played. Its the reason OKC would give him the money he wanted and its why Danny Ainge should have given him a large, you have to earn it, one year deal and not the contract he got.

  And if Green said no, Danny should have let him walk?

Sure. I agree it's a little early to cast Green off, but what's changed from his history and reputation?

It's hard for me to understand how -- to date -- this team would really be any different if the Cs had passed on Green, drafted Jeff Taylor instead of Melo, and signed Pietrus for a year as insurance.

Maybe Green'll turn a corner. Maybe he'll learn how to defend, or rebound, or both (doubtful). Maybe this team will start playing much better before an injury happens, and Green steps in and steps up. But until then? Would anyone here really care if Green were on another team doing what he's doing now? No.

Soft is a disease. I hate that he (and Bass) are letting it sink in with this team. Hate it.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 10:52:07 AM by ssspence »

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2012, 10:56:16 AM »

Online Kane3387

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Green is nothing more then another asset. I highly doubt he is a part of the future core of the celtics.

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Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2012, 11:03:20 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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Guys Pietrus was flat out awful last year and he missed one third of the season.  He was also a guy who im pretty sure shot 80% of his fgs from 3 at a terrible rate. Maybe there we're other people available but mentioning Pietrus's name basically says that you weren't attempting to reload for a championship.

As for green its a tough situation. This is Pierce's city and team and has been for a while now. He is still an all star and still gets the benefit of the doubt even when he plays bad. He's built a trust with Doc over the past decade. Green would have to over the top play better than Pierce to get more minutes than him otherwise I think he is in the 20 min range in which case he needs to make quick work to impress or add to the team.

Id like to get him minutes at the PF position especially when the matchups allow. He's the same rebounder as Bass and probably a better defender than Sully at the position. He should be able to take better advantage offensively at the position as well.

I know people like to shout that he can't play pf but we need to put talent on the floor in some shape or form. We've been trying too hard to play people at their natural position instead of rolling the ball out there every once.in a while. Its not like he's even been given a chance at PF since he's been here (again not saying he should be playing there primarily) and it's not like he would be playing center or PG. There's definitely some wiggle room at the PF spot in this league

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2012, 11:06:53 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Guys Pietrus was flat out awful last year and he missed one third of the season.  He was also a guy who im pretty sure shot 80% of his fgs from 3 at a terrible rate. Maybe there we're other people available but mentioning Pietrus's name basically says that you weren't attempting to reload for a championship.

As for green its a tough situation. This is Pierce's city and team and has been for a while now. He is still an all star and still gets the benefit of the doubt even when he plays bad. He's built a trust with Doc over the past decade. Green would have to over the top play better than Pierce to get more minutes than him otherwise I think he is in the 20 min range in which case he needs to make quick work to impress or add to the team.

Id like to get him minutes at the PF position especially when the matchups allow. He's the same rebounder as Bass and probably a better defender than Sully at the position. He should be able to take better advantage offensively at the position as well.

I know people like to shout that he can't play pf but we need to put talent on the floor in some shape or form. We've been trying too hard to play people at their natural position instead of rolling the ball out there every once.in a while. Its not like he's even been given a chance at PF since he's been here (again not saying he should be playing there primarily) and it's not like he would be playing center or PG. There's definitely some wiggle room at the PF spot in this league

I called Pietrus "insurance". And his defense is better than Green's. Period.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2012, 11:15:57 AM »

Offline Galeto

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I don't get why some still feel like he has a corner to turn.  He's providing the same rate of production he did at OKC.  More minutes will mean more raw numbers but not necessarily more quality.  He's a veteran with a lot of games and minutes to judge him by.  He's an average at best player, if you're being generous.  I don't see one aspect of his game that leads me to believe he's even a fringe all-star in the future.  It's nice that he looks the part, tall with an athletic body but his skill level and motor leave something to be desired. 

Doc absurdly said he was going to have Green play point forward a few weeks back.  I wish Green had more of that mentality which he had at Georgetown.  One of Green's biggest weaknesses is his one-dimensionality.  If his shots aren't falling, he provides nearly zero production.  If you can pass, you don't need to be on to make some kind of impact.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2012, 11:38:06 AM »

Offline Galeto

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One big reason why Green tends to stand in the corner a lot, which is not necessarily a bad thing since he's hit the corner threes at a very good rate, is that he's not a pick and roll ball handler.  His offensive game besides spot up shooting revolves around isos and the lowpost.  Not only is this team not built around clearing out for Green repeatedly but the production they get from doing so isn't all that great.

There has to be a way to get Green easier looks.  When he's given the ball in the post or on the wing and asked to create, the shots are almost always difficult and highly contested.  He doesn't have the crafty ballhandling or quickness to create separation. 

I'd like to see Green play more alongside Pierce on the wing.  Maybe it wouldn't benefit Green individually but Green's size would force teams into a difficult decision of who to put their smaller defender on.  If it's on Green, he'd be in better position to use his post game.

Regardless of who guards Green, a tall or small defender, he's not going to create a lot of horizontal separation.  He even struggled to do that against Hawes.  Maybe another way is to create vertical separation by trying to get him matched up against shorter guys.  He would have more room when he gets off lowpost shots and pull up jumpers.

Re: This is why Jeff Green's contract is so bad
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2012, 11:40:25 AM »

Online Celtics4ever

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We should have never have signed him without seeing him play.   That was silly.  He is not a carry team guy.

 

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