Author Topic: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.  (Read 5430 times)

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Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2012, 03:00:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The Cs trade for Gasol and his outsized contract if they want to go all in on the last two years of KG's career.  IF the Lakers would bite on Green, Lee and Bass for Gasol and Clark, and the Cs then sign a decent buyout vet to fill out the back of the rotation, they'd have a punchers' chance at the Finals again.

I don't see Bargnani and a half year rental of Calderon as much value for Gasol.  At least with the Cs package you get three young athletic guys who can either take a role on the Lakers or be moved in the summer for better fitting pieces.

The way Pekovic is playing for the Wolves, they'd be crazy to move him for the aging, expensive Gasol. Atlanta is not trading Smith or Horford for him.  Houston doesn't have any big contracts to match money with the Lakers even if they wanted Gasol still.   
Bargnani is a better player by himself than Green, Lee, or Bass and he is a much better fit in the Lakers system.  He is also pretty young and his contract isn't much different than Green's.  Nash is hurt right now and will probably miss more time.  Calderon is a pretty good backup and I certainly think the Lakers would consider re-signing him in the off season, to be the back-up/part time starter.  I also think in Dantoni's system, Calderon and Nash could play together at times, especially with the league's penchant for playing smaller.  You don't take on less talent because it fits better, especially when you are giving up a player as good as Gasol still is.  It is just silly.  Green, Lee, Bass is a horrible trade for the Lakers, now if Boston started adding assets like Sullinger, Bradley, draft picks, then the Lakers may bite, of course then it isn't worth it for Boston.

  Bargs is a pretty weak player. He's a fairly inefficient scorer and takes about 4 three pointers a game even though he's been hitting about 30% of them over the last 2 years. He'd be considered a pretty decent rebounder if he was a point guard and isn't really known for his defense. And a Nash/Calderon back court would be quite a defensive liability..
When Bargs was playing with Bosh he was a pretty efficient scorer.  Since Bosh left, he has had to uptick his shots and has way more defense on him and his efficiency has suffered because of it.  You put him next to Dwight on a team with Kobe and he will go back to the 40% three point shooter and much closer to 50% overall.  His defense will also greatly improve as he won't be playing out of position.  Bargs is a better player than Jeff Green and would be a significantly better fit on L.A. and it really isn't close. 

Calderon and Nash you couldn't really start, but they could certainly play a few minutes here and there together.  Heck last game Boston started 6'2" Terry and 6'1" Rondo, not exactly a towering back court.

  Bargs isn't really an efficient scorer and never really was. He's in his 7th season and he's only been over 40% on threes once. He's never come close to 50% overall, in fact he's only been over 45% once. I don't share your high hopes for any major defensive improvements. And the problem with Nash and Calderon on defense is their defense, not their size.
His TS% was over 55% twice.  His last two years with Bosh.  That is plenty efficient for a big guy that shoots as many outside shots as he does.

  A TS% of 55% would put him just outside the top 20 this year. For power forwards, that is. And saying "that is plenty efficient for a big guy that shoots as many outside shots as he does" is like saying "that's plenty of rebounds for someone who doesn't like to jump". You're either an efficient scorer or you aren't, and he isn't.

  KG takes a ton of outside shots and his TS% has exceeded Barg's career high 7 of the last 9 years.


Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2012, 03:21:40 PM »

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LA should take Lowry instead of Calderon. The deal makes a lot more sense for LA then.

Lowry can play two guard minutes alongside Nash. Very aggressive player offensively and defensively. They can work together as a two PG backcourt.

Calderon is playing very well for Toronto at the moment. Has led their recent win streak. It's not like Lowry is that good a player. I think that is doable.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2012, 03:25:57 PM »

Offline Chris

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LA should take Lowry instead of Calderon. The deal makes a lot more sense for LA then.

Lowry can play two guard minutes alongside Nash. Very aggressive player offensively and defensively. They can work together as a two PG backcourt.

Calderon is playing very well for Toronto at the moment. Has led their recent win streak. It's not like Lowry is that good a player. I think that is doable.

I am sure LA would like that, but it would probably be a non starter for Toronto. 

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2012, 03:34:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

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LA should take Lowry instead of Calderon. The deal makes a lot more sense for LA then.

Lowry can play two guard minutes alongside Nash. Very aggressive player offensively and defensively. They can work together as a two PG backcourt.

Calderon is playing very well for Toronto at the moment. Has led their recent win streak. It's not like Lowry is that good a player. I think that is doable.

I am sure LA would like that, but it would probably be a non starter for Toronto.

  Yeah, Lowry's the reason they're looking to move Jose.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2012, 03:35:23 PM »

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LA should take Lowry instead of Calderon. The deal makes a lot more sense for LA then.

Lowry can play two guard minutes alongside Nash. Very aggressive player offensively and defensively. They can work together as a two PG backcourt.

Calderon is playing very well for Toronto at the moment. Has led their recent win streak. It's not like Lowry is that good a player. I think that is doable.

I am sure LA would like that, but it would probably be a non starter for Toronto.

If they are serious about getting Pau Gasol, I think this is doable for Toronto.

It's not like Lowry is that much better than Calderon. It's a loss for them but it's not a huge one. They can live with that to get Pau Gasol.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2012, 04:24:30 PM »

Online Moranis

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LA should take Lowry instead of Calderon. The deal makes a lot more sense for LA then.

Lowry can play two guard minutes alongside Nash. Very aggressive player offensively and defensively. They can work together as a two PG backcourt.

Calderon is playing very well for Toronto at the moment. Has led their recent win streak. It's not like Lowry is that good a player. I think that is doable.

I am sure LA would like that, but it would probably be a non starter for Toronto.

If they are serious about getting Pau Gasol, I think this is doable for Toronto.

It's not like Lowry is that much better than Calderon. It's a loss for them but it's not a huge one. They can live with that to get Pau Gasol.
Lowry is significantly better than Calderon.  They won't give up Lowry and Bargnani for Gasol.  Just won't happen. 
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Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2012, 04:28:56 PM »

Offline Chris

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LA should take Lowry instead of Calderon. The deal makes a lot more sense for LA then.

Lowry can play two guard minutes alongside Nash. Very aggressive player offensively and defensively. They can work together as a two PG backcourt.

Calderon is playing very well for Toronto at the moment. Has led their recent win streak. It's not like Lowry is that good a player. I think that is doable.

I am sure LA would like that, but it would probably be a non starter for Toronto.

If they are serious about getting Pau Gasol, I think this is doable for Toronto.

It's not like Lowry is that much better than Calderon. It's a loss for them but it's not a huge one. They can live with that to get Pau Gasol.
Lowry is significantly better than Calderon.  They won't give up Lowry and Bargnani for Gasol.  Just won't happen.

Yeah, first of all, I don't think they are that desperate for Gasol.  They are interested in bringing him at the right price, but at the moment, Lowry is the best player on their roster, and other than their rookie center, their best asset moving forward, and they gave up a lottery pick to get him. 

The only reason Toronto is even in the discussion is that they have pieces that fit what LA wants, who they are ready to move on from.  Once LA starts asking for assets they want to hang on to, like Lowry, then they will just say "thanks, but no thanks".


Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2012, 04:38:40 PM »

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2012, 04:46:25 PM »

Offline Chris

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it. 

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2012, 04:50:07 PM »

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it.

Right, but what is the difference between having Pau Gasol + Kyle Lowry and having Pau Gasol + Jose Calderon? 

For Toronto. Where are they with each combination? Where will they be in the standings? What are their playoff chances? Is there really that much of a difference between where they will be post trade with Lowry vs Calderon to make it a deal breaker?

To me, it looks a very similar type of team overall with Lowry or Calderon.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2012, 04:52:39 PM »

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it.

Right, but what is the difference between having Pau Gasol + Kyle Lowry and having Pau Gasol + Jose Calderon? 

For Toronto. Where are they with each combination? Where will they be in the standings? What are their playoff chances? Is there really that much of a difference between where they will be post trade with Lowry vs Calderon to make it a deal breaker?

To me, it looks a very similar type of team overall with Lowry or Calderon.

The difference is you have a decently valuable asset going into next year if you still have Lowry.  If you have Calderon, you don't. 

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2012, 04:54:24 PM »

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it.

Right, but what is the difference between having Pau Gasol + Kyle Lowry and having Pau Gasol + Jose Calderon? 

For Toronto. Where are they with each combination? Where will they be in the standings? What are their playoff chances? Is there really that much of a difference between where they will be post trade with Lowry vs Calderon to make it a deal breaker?

To me, it looks a very similar type of team overall with Lowry or Calderon.

Honestly?  The difference is you have a decently valuable asset going into next year if you still have Lowry.  If you have Calderon, you don't.

So the quality of the team is similar but the quality of the trade assets left is too much of a drop-off, is that right? Is that what you mean.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2012, 04:57:11 PM »

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it.

Right, but what is the difference between having Pau Gasol + Kyle Lowry and having Pau Gasol + Jose Calderon? 

For Toronto. Where are they with each combination? Where will they be in the standings? What are their playoff chances? Is there really that much of a difference between where they will be post trade with Lowry vs Calderon to make it a deal breaker?

To me, it looks a very similar type of team overall with Lowry or Calderon.

Honestly?  The difference is you have a decently valuable asset going into next year if you still have Lowry.  If you have Calderon, you don't.

So the quality of the team is similar but the quality of the trade assets left is too much of a drop-off, is that right? Is that what you mean.

yes, exactly. 

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2012, 04:58:42 PM »

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Yeah Calderon's expiring right? Meanwhile Lowry is signed longer term at a solid price.

Giving up Lowry in a move for Gasol is very short term thinking, when Raptors need to be concerned about the long term. If they're dumping Bargs (who they want move on from) and Calderon (expiring) it makes sense.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2012, 04:58:43 PM »

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it.

Right, but what is the difference between having Pau Gasol + Kyle Lowry and having Pau Gasol + Jose Calderon? 

For Toronto. Where are they with each combination? Where will they be in the standings? What are their playoff chances? Is there really that much of a difference between where they will be post trade with Lowry vs Calderon to make it a deal breaker?

To me, it looks a very similar type of team overall with Lowry or Calderon.

Honestly?  The difference is you have a decently valuable asset going into next year if you still have Lowry.  If you have Calderon, you don't.

So the quality of the team is similar but the quality of the trade assets left is too much of a drop-off, is that right? Is that what you mean.

yes, exactly.

Okay. I understand. Yeah, okay, I can see that reason being a deal-breaker.

 

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