Author Topic: Lebron's lack of fouls thread  (Read 6966 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Still don't believe the officiating is biased?
« Reply #90 on: December 26, 2012, 12:46:36 PM »

Online Finkelskyhook

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2802
  • Tommy Points: 275
I'm not denying that he doesn't try to sell it on offense but TBH, he gets hacked a lot and it doesn't get called. He should be getting to the line typically at least 3 more drives a game that aren't called. you know Bron, Wade or Kobe would without any hope of the defenders getting any credit for possibly making a clean swipe at the ball [/quote][/i]

The difference between the messiah and Pierce, Wade, the snitchster, los Nash, and Kobe...Is that the defender doesn't have to be anywhere near the messiah to get a foul called against him.

 My favorite example of all was when the messiah was a Cav...The messiah was behind the 3-pt line and Tony Allen was defending with one foot on the free throw line and one foot forward.. Allen made a swipe from about 4ft away from the messiah and got called for a foul. Gorman must've laughed through a whole series before he could contain himself and get back to announcing.

Re: Still don't believe the officiating is biased?
« Reply #91 on: December 26, 2012, 12:49:59 PM »

Online Finkelskyhook

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2802
  • Tommy Points: 275
If LeBron didn't commit as much aggressive physical pressure as he does, he wouldn't be as respected of a defender as he is. Thanks to instant replays we can see things the refs don't, and we see they give him a little too much respect sometimes (calls based on reputation). Not everybody makes claims like this due to silly 6 game streaks, some of us actually watch him play. The problem with that argument is that the refs....And the league..See the replays after the game....Game after game. It is never corrected.

Re: Still don't believe the officiating is biased?
« Reply #92 on: December 26, 2012, 12:54:50 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2464
  • Tommy Points: 250

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.


Now players like Pierce get the Jordan treatment.

at what point did PP ever get that level of treatment from the refs?  I've seen his entire career and he's never gotten that level of consideration.  he's lived on driving the lane and I've never seen an all-star like PP get so few calls on those drives.  A lot of defensive hands slapping at balls that just don't get called (hmmm, guess I could have phrased that better but you get my point).

Personally I think Pierce is one of the best guys in the league at selling ticky-tack fouls as actual contact and getting to the line. Pierce is also widely regarded as one of the worst floppers in the league.
I'm not denying that he doesn't try to sell it on offense but TBH, he gets hacked a lot and it doesn't get called.  He should be getting to the line typically at least 3 more drives a game that aren't called.  you know Bron, Wade or Kobe would without any hope of the defenders getting any credit for possibly making a clean swipe at the ball

I very much agree with this.

PP has gotten hacked (especially bumped with the shoulder) driving into the paint his whole career, with the non-call being far more prevalent than the call.

At first, back in the pre-KG days, I would attribute it to his strength and consequently looking like he wasn't "bothered" by the contact.

Problem is you breathe on the king, LeBroid, despite how big and strong he is, and he almost always gets the call. Not so for the Captain.

Re: Still don't believe the officiating is biased?
« Reply #93 on: December 26, 2012, 01:04:01 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 38863
  • Tommy Points: 1962
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
I'm sorry guys but look at the history of the league.

There is no correlation between athleticism and fouling.

You guys can keep saying it, and it makes sense, but there's just no evidence.

That's like saying there is no correlation between athleticism and scoring. Yes, lots of hyper-athletes never figure out how to score, but there are tons of athletes who figure out how to use their athleticism to help them score at the NBA level.

Players who use their athleticism to stay in front of their opponent need to foul less often, because they're caught out of position less often.

Older players have learned how to play better defense at their athleticism waned, or just flat out play worse defense.

Quote
There are unbelievably athletic/great defenders who aren't "too physically gifted" to avoid fouls (Josh Smith for one) and there are unbelievably slow/great defenders like Jason Kidd that don't foul (1.5 since he turned 36).

Josh Smith is currently drawing 2.7 fouls per 36 minutes at age 27 as the main help defender on his team. For context, Kobe Bryant in 2008, the year he won MVP at age 29, fouled 2.6 times per 36 minutes. Josh Smith absolutely uses his athleticism to make plays that are non-calls when lots of other guys would be forced to foul, or just choose to not make the play at all.

And Jason Kidd was freaky athletic as a young player, and absolutely used his freaky athletic skill set and size to help him play defense without needing to foul.

Now, he mainly guards 2 guards, or gets blown-by like an afterthought.
That's makes my point, nobody makes correlations between athleticism and scoring like that.  You don't say this guy's really athletic, he can score a lot of points, just like you shouldn't say this guy's really athletic, he can avoid a lot of fouls.

Well, you'd say, "his athleticism allows him to make plays that help him avoid fouls."

And by that you could mean a lot of different things, it could mean his quickness and footwork allows him to get to spots before the defender can exploit them, or it could mean his leaping ability and length allow him to bother shots from inopportune positions without necessitating a foul. With both cases skill level and coordination and timing are paramount abilities that are tied to the player's defensive ability as well, but without the athleticism, he wouldn't be nearly as special.

Think of it like this: Athleticism is like a gun. Anyone who has a gun can point it and shoot it, but people who don't have the coordination and necessary skill level probably aren't going to be very good marksmen. You need the coordination and skill level to be a special marksmen at the highest levels of competition.

But its all a moot point if you don't have the gun (extraordinary athleticism).

Even KG now, at age 36, is still a special athlete. He's 7 feet tall, and with the length to boot, and he's super freakin quick for a 7fter.

And you kind of ignored my Josh Smith/Kobe comparison that debunked your Josh Smith can't avoid fouling point. Where is the love for the statistical analysis, mgent?

DKC Portland Trailblazers Team Card
Questions about the DKC? Ask here: LINK
Free Agency Tracker: Link

Re: Lebron's lack of fouls thread
« Reply #94 on: December 26, 2012, 11:28:57 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 38863
  • Tommy Points: 1962
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Sorry folks, looks like I was so impressed with my own genius that I accidentally locked the thread. Totes my bad, kids.

DKC Portland Trailblazers Team Card
Questions about the DKC? Ask here: LINK
Free Agency Tracker: Link

Re: Still don't believe the officiating is biased?
« Reply #95 on: December 27, 2012, 12:58:00 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Antoine Walker
  • *****
  • Posts: 5917
  • Tommy Points: 617
I'm sorry guys but look at the history of the league.

There is no correlation between athleticism and fouling.

You guys can keep saying it, and it makes sense, but there's just no evidence.

That's like saying there is no correlation between athleticism and scoring. Yes, lots of hyper-athletes never figure out how to score, but there are tons of athletes who figure out how to use their athleticism to help them score at the NBA level.

Players who use their athleticism to stay in front of their opponent need to foul less often, because they're caught out of position less often.

Older players have learned how to play better defense at their athleticism waned, or just flat out play worse defense.

Quote
There are unbelievably athletic/great defenders who aren't "too physically gifted" to avoid fouls (Josh Smith for one) and there are unbelievably slow/great defenders like Jason Kidd that don't foul (1.5 since he turned 36).

Josh Smith is currently drawing 2.7 fouls per 36 minutes at age 27 as the main help defender on his team. For context, Kobe Bryant in 2008, the year he won MVP at age 29, fouled 2.6 times per 36 minutes. Josh Smith absolutely uses his athleticism to make plays that are non-calls when lots of other guys would be forced to foul, or just choose to not make the play at all.

And Jason Kidd was freaky athletic as a young player, and absolutely used his freaky athletic skill set and size to help him play defense without needing to foul.

Now, he mainly guards 2 guards, or gets blown-by like an afterthought.
That's makes my point, nobody makes correlations between athleticism and scoring like that.  You don't say this guy's really athletic, he can score a lot of points, just like you shouldn't say this guy's really athletic, he can avoid a lot of fouls.

Well, you'd say, "his athleticism allows him to make plays that help him avoid fouls."

And by that you could mean a lot of different things, it could mean his quickness and footwork allows him to get to spots before the defender can exploit them, or it could mean his leaping ability and length allow him to bother shots from inopportune positions without necessitating a foul. With both cases skill level and coordination and timing are paramount abilities that are tied to the player's defensive ability as well, but without the athleticism, he wouldn't be nearly as special.

Think of it like this: Athleticism is like a gun. Anyone who has a gun can point it and shoot it, but people who don't have the coordination and necessary skill level probably aren't going to be very good marksmen. You need the coordination and skill level to be a special marksmen at the highest levels of competition.

But its all a moot point if you don't have the gun (extraordinary athleticism).

Even KG now, at age 36, is still a special athlete. He's 7 feet tall, and with the length to boot, and he's super freakin quick for a 7fter.

And you kind of ignored my Josh Smith/Kobe comparison that debunked your Josh Smith can't avoid fouling point. Where is the love for the statistical analysis, mgent?
I didn't understand it.  Kobe had 2.6 per 36 that year (and his career).  Josh currently has 2.7 per 36, down from 3.1 for his career.  You even mention Kevin Garnett who's had 2.7 since he came to Boston.

I'm not sure how these guys are explaining the reasoning behind LeBron's 1.7 fouls per 36, or the 1.2 fouls per 36 he's averaging this year.

The reason I brought up Josh Smith is because he's as close as you can get to LeBron's athleticism.

I clearly accept the fact that LeBron couldn't do what he does defensively without his athleticism.  The bottom line here is LeBron gets away with tons of physical contact on defense and yet he's taking FTs for the slightest touches when he has the ball.  Other excellent defenders aren't sending him to the line for the same stuff he's doing on defense because he's slightly more athletic than them.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog