Lebron's lack of fouls thread

[Rondo2287]

Star players get calls here or there, and they also really don't foul as often, or know how to game the system.

KG for instance fouls all the time. But he does it so consistently that he gets away with it now.

Agreed, KG has lots of what celts fans would call, "Veteran plays,"  like sticking his leg out a little farther when setting screens.

Also, for every travel he gets called for while performing a post move there are probably a few dozen that he doesnt get called for.

[SHAQATTACK]

I think he can possibly reach 10 games or more and not commit a foul.

[Fafnir]

Star players get calls here or there, and they also really don't foul as often, or know how to game the system.

KG for instance fouls all the time. But he does it so consistently that he gets away with it now.

Agreed, KG has lots of what celts fans would call, "Veteran plays,"  like sticking his leg out a little farther when setting screens.

Also, for every travel he gets called for while performing a post move there are probably a few dozen that he doesnt get called for.

Meh I don't get too worked up over travels, everyone gets away with them all the time.

On the catch in the fast break or starting to bring the ball up, the constant shuffle feet after and offensive rebound. (Brook Lopez did it a few times)

[indeedproceed]

Star players get calls here or there, and they also really don't foul as often, or know how to game the system.

KG for instance fouls all the time. But he does it so consistently that he gets away with it now.

Agreed, KG has lots of what celts fans would call, "Veteran plays,"  like sticking his leg out a little farther when setting screens.

Also, for every travel he gets called for while performing a post move there are probably a few dozen that he doesnt get called for.

Right. KG travels every time he faces up and puts the ball on the floor. He shuffles his feet literally every time.

I mean, people who say star players don't get calls, I just don't agree with it. Of course they do. But star players are also kind of awesome at basketball, plus they're also almost all athletically above average (six, try and beat it.), so they can get to places on the floor (or in the air) quicker than most guys, so they in fact aren't fouling when a lot of players would be forced to.

[mgent]

I'm sorry guys but look at the history of the league.

There is no correlation between athleticism and fouling.

You guys can keep saying it, and it makes sense, but there's just no evidence.

There are unbelievably athletic/great defenders who aren't "too physically gifted" to avoid fouls (Josh Smith for one) and there are unbelievably slow/great defenders like Jason Kidd that don't foul (1.5 since he turned 36).  If speed and good hands were the key, who could foul less than Rondo and Chris Paul?

Then of course there are tons of very athletic poor defenders that foul a lot.

Let's get serious.  It has nothing to do with the body, it's the player.

[indeedproceed]

I'm sorry guys but look at the history of the league.

There is no correlation between athleticism and fouling.

You guys can keep saying it, and it makes sense, but there's just no evidence.

That's like saying there is no correlation between athleticism and scoring. Yes, lots of hyper-athletes never figure out how to score, but there are tons of athletes who figure out how to use their athleticism to help them score at the NBA level.

Players who use their athleticism to stay in front of their opponent need to foul less often, because they're caught out of position less often.

Older players have learned how to play better defense at their athleticism waned, or just flat out play worse defense.

There are unbelievably athletic/great defenders who aren't "too physically gifted" to avoid fouls (Josh Smith for one) and there are unbelievably slow/great defenders like Jason Kidd that don't foul (1.5 since he turned 36).

Josh Smith is currently drawing 2.7 fouls per 36 minutes at age 27 as the main help defender on his team. For context, Kobe Bryant in 2008, the year he won MVP at age 29, fouled 2.6 times per 36 minutes. Josh Smith absolutely uses his athleticism to make plays that are non-calls when lots of other guys would be forced to foul, or just choose to not make the play at all.

And Jason Kidd was freaky athletic as a young player, and absolutely used his freaky athletic skill set and size to help him play defense without needing to foul.

Now, he mainly guards 2 guards, or gets blown-by like an afterthought.

[kozlodoev]

Star players get calls here or there, and they also really don't foul as often, or know how to game the system.

KG for instance fouls all the time. But he does it so consistently that he gets away with it now.

Agreed, KG has lots of what celts fans would call, "Veteran plays,"  like sticking his leg out a little farther when setting screens.

Also, for every travel he gets called for while performing a post move there are probably a few dozen that he doesnt get called for.

Meh I don't get too worked up over travels, everyone gets away with them all the time.

On the catch in the fast break or starting to bring the ball up, the constant shuffle feet after and offensive rebound. (Brook Lopez did it a few times)

Also, pretty much every time a pass is caught, or after a defensive rebound. I don't think players have an understanding of travel rules at all. Not enforcing them helps, too.

[Finkelskyhook]

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.

This whole star call officiating thing started with Jordan.  He was the only player getting preferential treatment in his era.  Jordan would get an occasional foul call during meaningless times to keep the officials "honest"...In spite of the non-calls for his travels, hacking, and charging.

Stern doubled-down with the messiah.  Granted he's not as aggressive as Jordan was defensively...But no offensive fouls or traveling violations when he barrels toward the basket taking 3-4 steps in the process?  I don't know who said it earlier...But heat games are unwatchable.   

Now players like Pierce, the snitchster, Wade, los Nash, Paul, and Bryant get the Jordan treatment.

Until people stop watching, NBA games....Particularly Heat games...Look more like staged performances than competitions.

[slamtheking]

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.

Now players like Pierce get the Jordan treatment.

at what point did PP ever get that level of treatment from the refs?  I've seen his entire career and he's never gotten that level of consideration.  he's lived on driving the lane and I've never seen an all-star like PP get so few calls on those drives.  A lot of defensive hands slapping at balls that just don't get called (hmmm, guess I could have phrased that better but you get my point).

[indeedproceed]

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.

Now players like Pierce get the Jordan treatment.

at what point did PP ever get that level of treatment from the refs?  I've seen his entire career and he's never gotten that level of consideration.  he's lived on driving the lane and I've never seen an all-star like PP get so few calls on those drives.  A lot of defensive hands slapping at balls that just don't get called (hmmm, guess I could have phrased that better but you get my point).

Personally I think Pierce is one of the best guys in the league at selling ticky-tack fouls as actual contact and getting to the line. Pierce is also widely regarded as one of the worst floppers in the league.

[Finkelskyhook]

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.

Now players like Pierce get the Jordan treatment.

at what point did PP ever get that level of treatment from the refs?  I've seen his entire career and he's never gotten that level of consideration.  he's lived on driving the lane and I've never seen an all-star like PP get so few calls on those drives.  A lot of defensive hands slapping at balls that just don't get called (hmmm, guess I could have phrased that better but you get my point).

At what point?  The upfake / barrel-into-the-defender-going-straight-up is an offensive foul by any other player in the NBA.  Pierce also travels about half the time he has the ball.

[slamtheking]

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.

Now players like Pierce get the Jordan treatment.

at what point did PP ever get that level of treatment from the refs?  I've seen his entire career and he's never gotten that level of consideration.  he's lived on driving the lane and I've never seen an all-star like PP get so few calls on those drives.  A lot of defensive hands slapping at balls that just don't get called (hmmm, guess I could have phrased that better but you get my point).

Personally I think Pierce is one of the best guys in the league at selling ticky-tack fouls as actual contact and getting to the line. Pierce is also widely regarded as one of the worst floppers in the league.

I'm not denying that he doesn't try to sell it on offense but TBH, he gets hacked a lot and it doesn't get called.  He should be getting to the line typically at least 3 more drives a game that aren't called.  you know Bron, Wade or Kobe would without any hope of the defenders getting any credit for possibly making a clean swipe at the ball

[indeedproceed]

Even Jordan never got this special treatment.

Now players like Pierce get the Jordan treatment.

at what point did PP ever get that level of treatment from the refs?  I've seen his entire career and he's never gotten that level of consideration.  he's lived on driving the lane and I've never seen an all-star like PP get so few calls on those drives.  A lot of defensive hands slapping at balls that just don't get called (hmmm, guess I could have phrased that better but you get my point).

Personally I think Pierce is one of the best guys in the league at selling ticky-tack fouls as actual contact and getting to the line. Pierce is also widely regarded as one of the worst floppers in the league.

I'm not denying that he doesn't try to sell it on offense but TBH, he gets hacked a lot and it doesn't get called.  He should be getting to the line typically at least 3 more drives a game that aren't called.  you know Bron, Wade or Kobe would without any hope of the defenders getting any credit for possibly making a clean swipe at the ball

Eh, I disagree. I think there are guys out there you can point to and say they're not getting calls like they deserve, but I don't think Paul Pierce is one of them. He gets plenty of 'benefit of the doubt' calls. Not as much as he used to maybe, but he isn't in the lane as much as he used to be either.

[mgent]

I'm sorry guys but look at the history of the league.

There is no correlation between athleticism and fouling.

You guys can keep saying it, and it makes sense, but there's just no evidence.

That's like saying there is no correlation between athleticism and scoring. Yes, lots of hyper-athletes never figure out how to score, but there are tons of athletes who figure out how to use their athleticism to help them score at the NBA level.

Players who use their athleticism to stay in front of their opponent need to foul less often, because they're caught out of position less often.

Older players have learned how to play better defense at their athleticism waned, or just flat out play worse defense.

There are unbelievably athletic/great defenders who aren't "too physically gifted" to avoid fouls (Josh Smith for one) and there are unbelievably slow/great defenders like Jason Kidd that don't foul (1.5 since he turned 36).

Josh Smith is currently drawing 2.7 fouls per 36 minutes at age 27 as the main help defender on his team. For context, Kobe Bryant in 2008, the year he won MVP at age 29, fouled 2.6 times per 36 minutes. Josh Smith absolutely uses his athleticism to make plays that are non-calls when lots of other guys would be forced to foul, or just choose to not make the play at all.

And Jason Kidd was freaky athletic as a young player, and absolutely used his freaky athletic skill set and size to help him play defense without needing to foul.

Now, he mainly guards 2 guards, or gets blown-by like an afterthought.

That's makes my point, nobody makes correlations between athleticism and scoring like that.  You don't say this guy's really athletic, he can score a lot of points, just like you shouldn't say this guy's really athletic, he can avoid a lot of fouls.

It doesn't bother me if people say it helps, but there are tons of great scorers and defenders that are unspectacular athletes and a lot of the great athletes are incapable of establishing that better positioning so it's a weird argument.

Elite defense is much more of a style than a quantitative analysis.  The idea is to get away with as much as possible without getting called for it.  If LeBron doesn't do this than neither does Ron Artest, Kevin Garnett, Bruce Bowen, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan or any other all-defense 1st team member.  These guys are smart enough to know what the refs are going to call based on when it is during the game, the angle at which they can be seen, how the game's been called up to that point, how much attention is being paid by the refs to that part of the floor during that particular play, etc.

If LeBron didn't commit as much aggressive physical pressure as he does, he wouldn't be as respected of a defender as he is.  Thanks to instant replays we can see things the refs don't, and we see they give him a little too much respect sometimes (calls based on reputation).  Not everybody makes claims like this due to silly 6 game streaks, some of us actually watch him play.

[slamtheking]

If LeBron didn't commit as much aggressive physical pressure as he does, he wouldn't be as respected of a defender as he is.  Thanks to instant replays we can see things the refs don't, and we see they give him a little too much respect sometimes (calls based on reputation).  Not everybody makes claims like this due to silly 6 game streaks, some of us actually watch him play.

and those that watch him play (other than yourself based on this statement) see him get away with foul after foul and no whistle.  the no-foul streak just calls more attention to it.  makes it rather obvious that there's something wrong here. 

he's a top-notch defender ( puked a little admitting that) but he's not good enough (or lazy enough) to not commit a foul on D in a game, let alone that many games (never mind consecutive games.