Author Topic: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG  (Read 4635 times)

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Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2012, 11:58:09 AM »

Offline drax

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Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2012, 11:59:55 AM »

Offline Who

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Well, if Rondo's going to play with Lebron, both are going to have to adjust their games.  Lebron is actually better than Rondo in what he creates bringing the ball up the court because he's the best transition scorer in the game and a tremendous transition passer who doesn't turn the ball over like Rondo does.

  Rondo's a much better passer than James.

Because he has more assists? 

If James wasn't such a great scorer and focused on getting double digit assists a night, he would do it easily.
And average twice as many TOs than Rondo in the process.
I agree Rondo is a much better passer than LeBron. I agree that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to. I disagree that LeBron would have a large spike in turnovers.

I do think that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to and if he played the point guard position full time. But he'll always have a scorers mentality first and foremost. So between the scoring and playmaking, LeBron will need to monopolize the ball. Far more than Rondo. LeBron will never be the distributor / floor general that Rondo is (and if he did, his assists would drop) or have the vision and creativity Rondo possesses as a passer.

I do think that LeBron could be a 25-30ppg and 10-11apg with 7-8rpg from the PG position though. Kind of a modern day Oscar Robertson. With everything revolving around him.

Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2012, 12:55:58 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2012, 01:52:34 PM »

Offline mgent

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Well, if Rondo's going to play with Lebron, both are going to have to adjust their games.  Lebron is actually better than Rondo in what he creates bringing the ball up the court because he's the best transition scorer in the game and a tremendous transition passer who doesn't turn the ball over like Rondo does.

  Rondo's a much better passer than James.

Because he has more assists? 

If James wasn't such a great scorer and focused on getting double digit assists a night, he would do it easily.
And average twice as many TOs than Rondo in the process.
I agree Rondo is a much better passer than LeBron. I agree that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to. I disagree that LeBron would have a large spike in turnovers.

I do think that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to and if he played the point guard position full time. But he'll always have a scorers mentality first and foremost. So between the scoring and playmaking, LeBron will need to monopolize the ball. Far more than Rondo. LeBron will never be the distributor / floor general that Rondo is (and if he did, his assists would drop) or have the vision and creativity Rondo possesses as a passer.

I do think that LeBron could be a 25-30ppg and 10-11apg with 7-8rpg from the PG position though. Kind of a modern day Oscar Robertson. With everything revolving around him.
I don't know how you double your assists with the same quality of play and not come close to doubling your TOs.

LeBron has played the point for the majority of his career.  He'll take handoffs from other guys that bring the ball up the court unlike the more traditional Rondo, but it's crazy to say the offense/ball hasn't revolved around him.  He's a scoring PG.  Derrick Rose with 6 more inches and better steroids. 

I highly doubt there's enough time in a game for LeBron to average 30 and 11 over a season.  Yeah so there was one guy in history that could do it, but Oscar's teams were taking like 20 more shots a game.
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Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2012, 02:02:54 PM »

Offline Who

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Well, if Rondo's going to play with Lebron, both are going to have to adjust their games.  Lebron is actually better than Rondo in what he creates bringing the ball up the court because he's the best transition scorer in the game and a tremendous transition passer who doesn't turn the ball over like Rondo does.

  Rondo's a much better passer than James.

Because he has more assists? 

If James wasn't such a great scorer and focused on getting double digit assists a night, he would do it easily.
And average twice as many TOs than Rondo in the process.
I agree Rondo is a much better passer than LeBron. I agree that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to. I disagree that LeBron would have a large spike in turnovers.

I do think that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to and if he played the point guard position full time. But he'll always have a scorers mentality first and foremost. So between the scoring and playmaking, LeBron will need to monopolize the ball. Far more than Rondo. LeBron will never be the distributor / floor general that Rondo is (and if he did, his assists would drop) or have the vision and creativity Rondo possesses as a passer.

I do think that LeBron could be a 25-30ppg and 10-11apg with 7-8rpg from the PG position though. Kind of a modern day Oscar Robertson. With everything revolving around him.
I don't know how you double your assists with the same quality of play and not come close to doubling your TOs.

LeBron has played the point for the majority of his career.  He'll take handoffs from other guys that bring the ball up the court unlike the more traditional Rondo, but it's crazy to say the offense/ball hasn't revolved around him.  He's a scoring PG.  Derrick Rose with 6 more inches and better steroids. 

I highly doubt there's enough time in a game for LeBron to average 30 and 11 over a season.  Yeah so there was one guy in history that could do it, but Oscar's teams were taking like 20 more shots a game.
His turnovers will increase some but not double. They'll be at a similar rate, maybe slightly increased, from his current level relative to his combined scoring + assists responsibilities.

LeBron wouldn't be able to put up 25-30ppg and 10-11apg on a team with a player like D-Wade alongside him. More like a squad like Cleveland. Where he allowed monopolize the ball.

LeBron has played point forward throughout the majority of his career. Not PG. There is a big difference between the two in terms of touches, time on the ball and sharing the ball with another creator offensively (like Mo Williams).

LeBron has hardly ever played PG in his career. He played there a fair bit as a rookie and for a few games while Mo Williams was injured (and did average double digit assists and a near triple double with huge scoring numbers at PG = mainly because there was hardly anybody else to create offensively so LeBron had to do everything).

Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 02:11:19 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Kind of easy to customize with no limits, how about staying under $50 mil in salary for the starting five?
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Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 02:17:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Well, if Rondo's going to play with Lebron, both are going to have to adjust their games.  Lebron is actually better than Rondo in what he creates bringing the ball up the court because he's the best transition scorer in the game and a tremendous transition passer who doesn't turn the ball over like Rondo does.

  Rondo's a much better passer than James.

Because he has more assists? 

If James wasn't such a great scorer and focused on getting double digit assists a night, he would do it easily.

  There's no way on the planet James would ever average double digit assists if he wasn't such a great scorer. LeBron's a very good passer but in general he gets the attention of 2-3 defenders and passes the ball to whoever's wide open because their defender's helping on James. Let him try and run an offense with the other 4 defenders close to their man and his defender playing off of him and the results would be pretty mediocre.

Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 02:59:51 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Kind of easy to customize with no limits, how about staying under $50 mil in salary for the starting five?

 Yeah everybody what he said. Lets try to stay around 50 Million combined salaries.

Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 03:19:32 PM »

Offline mgent

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Well, if Rondo's going to play with Lebron, both are going to have to adjust their games.  Lebron is actually better than Rondo in what he creates bringing the ball up the court because he's the best transition scorer in the game and a tremendous transition passer who doesn't turn the ball over like Rondo does.

  Rondo's a much better passer than James.

Because he has more assists? 

If James wasn't such a great scorer and focused on getting double digit assists a night, he would do it easily.
And average twice as many TOs than Rondo in the process.
I agree Rondo is a much better passer than LeBron. I agree that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to. I disagree that LeBron would have a large spike in turnovers.

I do think that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to and if he played the point guard position full time. But he'll always have a scorers mentality first and foremost. So between the scoring and playmaking, LeBron will need to monopolize the ball. Far more than Rondo. LeBron will never be the distributor / floor general that Rondo is (and if he did, his assists would drop) or have the vision and creativity Rondo possesses as a passer.

I do think that LeBron could be a 25-30ppg and 10-11apg with 7-8rpg from the PG position though. Kind of a modern day Oscar Robertson. With everything revolving around him.
I don't know how you double your assists with the same quality of play and not come close to doubling your TOs.

LeBron has played the point for the majority of his career.  He'll take handoffs from other guys that bring the ball up the court unlike the more traditional Rondo, but it's crazy to say the offense/ball hasn't revolved around him.  He's a scoring PG.  Derrick Rose with 6 more inches and better steroids. 

I highly doubt there's enough time in a game for LeBron to average 30 and 11 over a season.  Yeah so there was one guy in history that could do it, but Oscar's teams were taking like 20 more shots a game.
His turnovers will increase some but not double. They'll be at a similar rate, maybe slightly increased, from his current level relative to his combined scoring + assists responsibilities.

LeBron wouldn't be able to put up 25-30ppg and 10-11apg on a team with a player like D-Wade alongside him. More like a squad like Cleveland. Where he allowed monopolize the ball.

LeBron has played point forward throughout the majority of his career. Not PG. There is a big difference between the two in terms of touches, time on the ball and sharing the ball with another creator offensively (like Mo Williams).

LeBron has hardly ever played PG in his career. He played there a fair bit as a rookie and for a few games while Mo Williams was injured (and did average double digit assists and a near triple double with huge scoring numbers at PG = mainly because there was hardly anybody else to create offensively so LeBron had to do everything).
He did dominate the ball on a team like Cleveland with no true PG though, and was a 30 and 7 player in the middle of his prime.  Dwyane Wade also ran the point in Miami and was a 7 assist player until LeBron came to town, took the duties, and forced him down 4.  I don't really see how those ~4 assists that Wade and Mo Williams take away from LeBron is all that different than the 4 assists that Pierce takes away from Rondo when he's creating for other.  That's not counting the 2-3 each going to KG and Ray (now Terry).

Point forward, point guard, it's the same thing.  He's the creator of the offense regardless of which guy he's guarding on the other end.  Just because Norm Nixon or Byron Scott is the shortest guy on the court doesn't mean Magic isn't the PG.  The only difference between what LeBron did in Cleveland and what most PGs do is he doesn't bring the ball up the court every time, and he doesn't set up plays that are run for other guys, for example throwing it down to Big Z for a post up.  That's why his usage is so high.

And I was never saying his TO rate would double, I was saying his TOs would as a result of doubling the amount of passes he has to make to get where Rondo is.  LeBron takes amazing care of the ball, people aren't picking his pocket or making him get out of control with nowhere to go, the majority of his TOs are from passes.
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Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Customize a Roster with Rondo at PG
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 04:05:33 PM »

Offline Who

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Well, if Rondo's going to play with Lebron, both are going to have to adjust their games.  Lebron is actually better than Rondo in what he creates bringing the ball up the court because he's the best transition scorer in the game and a tremendous transition passer who doesn't turn the ball over like Rondo does.

  Rondo's a much better passer than James.

Because he has more assists? 

If James wasn't such a great scorer and focused on getting double digit assists a night, he would do it easily.
And average twice as many TOs than Rondo in the process.
I agree Rondo is a much better passer than LeBron. I agree that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to. I disagree that LeBron would have a large spike in turnovers.

I do think that LeBron could average double digit assists if he chose to and if he played the point guard position full time. But he'll always have a scorers mentality first and foremost. So between the scoring and playmaking, LeBron will need to monopolize the ball. Far more than Rondo. LeBron will never be the distributor / floor general that Rondo is (and if he did, his assists would drop) or have the vision and creativity Rondo possesses as a passer.

I do think that LeBron could be a 25-30ppg and 10-11apg with 7-8rpg from the PG position though. Kind of a modern day Oscar Robertson. With everything revolving around him.
I don't know how you double your assists with the same quality of play and not come close to doubling your TOs.

LeBron has played the point for the majority of his career.  He'll take handoffs from other guys that bring the ball up the court unlike the more traditional Rondo, but it's crazy to say the offense/ball hasn't revolved around him.  He's a scoring PG.  Derrick Rose with 6 more inches and better steroids. 

I highly doubt there's enough time in a game for LeBron to average 30 and 11 over a season.  Yeah so there was one guy in history that could do it, but Oscar's teams were taking like 20 more shots a game.
His turnovers will increase some but not double. They'll be at a similar rate, maybe slightly increased, from his current level relative to his combined scoring + assists responsibilities.

LeBron wouldn't be able to put up 25-30ppg and 10-11apg on a team with a player like D-Wade alongside him. More like a squad like Cleveland. Where he allowed monopolize the ball.

LeBron has played point forward throughout the majority of his career. Not PG. There is a big difference between the two in terms of touches, time on the ball and sharing the ball with another creator offensively (like Mo Williams).

LeBron has hardly ever played PG in his career. He played there a fair bit as a rookie and for a few games while Mo Williams was injured (and did average double digit assists and a near triple double with huge scoring numbers at PG = mainly because there was hardly anybody else to create offensively so LeBron had to do everything).
He did dominate the ball on a team like Cleveland with no true PG though, and was a 30 and 7 player in the middle of his prime.  Dwyane Wade also ran the point in Miami and was a 7 assist player until LeBron came to town, took the duties, and forced him down 4.  I don't really see how those ~4 assists that Wade and Mo Williams take away from LeBron is all that different than the 4 assists that Pierce takes away from Rondo when he's creating for other.  That's not counting the 2-3 each going to KG and Ray (now Terry).

Point forward, point guard, it's the same thing.  He's the creator of the offense regardless of which guy he's guarding on the other end.  Just because Norm Nixon or Byron Scott is the shortest guy on the court doesn't mean Magic isn't the PG.  The only difference between what LeBron did in Cleveland and what most PGs do is he doesn't bring the ball up the court every time, and he doesn't set up plays that are run for other guys, for example throwing it down to Big Z for a post up. That's why his usage is so high.

And I was never saying his TO rate would double, I was saying his TOs would as a result of doubling the amount of passes he has to make to get where Rondo is.  LeBron takes amazing care of the ball, people aren't picking his pocket or making him get out of control with nowhere to go, the majority of his TOs are from passes.

(1) The bolded part = which means he gets less assists. He would pick up another couple of them if he did do those things. If he played as a PG instead of point forward. There clearly is a difference between the two roles. You just explained it.

As high as LeBron's usage was as a point forward, it would be even higher as a point guard.

As much as LeBron dominated the ball in Cleveland, he would have had to dominate it even more without Mo Williams there (as Rondo could do if he chose to without Pierce). It is not just the four assists Mo Williams averaged. It is the shot attempts. It's the pick and rolls he ran. The time Mo Williams spent on the ball.

Take Mo Williams away from that Cavs team and replace him with a Shane Battier type (low usage, limited shot-creation and playmaking skills) at SF (alongside Anthony Parker type at SG) and LeBron's duties as a creator offensively increase considerably because he is  the sole creator on the floor. There is nobody else there on that perimeter trio to take those touches, pick and rolls, shot attempts and passes that Mo Williams took (no replacement for Mo). So those touches, for the most part, go to LeBron. So his combined scoring/assists rise due to an increased load offensively.

LeBron averaged 8.6 assists and 29.7 points. With a larger load offensively, as a point guard and while playing without a Mo Williams (or replacement player), you don't think LeBron can get to double digit assists? Of course he could.

-----------------------

On my first post, way up there = the bolded brown part = I said that LeBron is not as good passer or floor general as Rondo. That he couldn't do the things Rondo can do.

I do think that LeBron could average double digit assists though. And I do think he could be a prolific scorer while doing so 25-30. And I do not think his turnovers would see a large spike as a result.

-----------------------

RE: Turnovers

I think there might be a miscommunication here. I am not completely sure but I think we may be agreeing with one another. Just saying it in a different way. My not quite understanding what you meant and you not quite understanding what I meant. But the same thing in the end. Maybe ??

From LeBron's 2010 season, when he averaged 29.7ppg and 8.6apg and 3.2tpg. With an increased usage from playing PG and no Mo Williams and with probably a 15-20% increase in usage to get to double digit assists, I'd expect LeBron's turnovers to go up by the comparable amount (15-20% = say 3.75tpg). Probably even at slightly increased rate (20-25% = say 4.0 turnovers a game). Something like that.

Which is still excellent for a guy who is going for 30/10 on a nightly basis. The increase in turnovers is in line, or close to it, with his increase in usage. There wouldn't be a large spike from his previous rate of turnovers.