Author Topic: Time for Doc to go.  (Read 17445 times)

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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #120 on: December 22, 2012, 09:33:27 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

EL OH EL

wait, wait, you are right, he put in collins. great change. fabulous. That definitely got us to attack the basket more right? instead of shooting bricks?
He works with what he's got. And right now, he's got Collins, Garnett, Bass, and Sullinger to work with.

So you envision the problem being us not attacking the basket enough? How do you envision this happening? Benching Pierce (still our best offensive player at this point, sadly)? Playing Fab Melo? Not taking Rondo out of the game?

The problem of this team is that none of the new players (+ Bass) are performing at a level which their career numbers suggest they can, and that after Darko's departure our depth at center suddenly vanished in thin air.

Add to this the fact that Melo is clearly not ready, and Sullinger has been progressing slower than expected, and you got a team with issues.

"Passing the ball like other teams do"? This team is averaging 23 assist per game, which is good for second in the NBA (and shooting 47% from the floor in the process, fifth in the NBA).

The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.
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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #121 on: December 22, 2012, 09:38:47 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).
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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #122 on: December 22, 2012, 10:05:31 AM »

Offline MBunge

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get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).

1.  We don't blitz the pick abecause our big men can't stop anyone.  We do it because our permieter players, particularly Rondo, are terrible at fighting over picks and staying with their man.

2.  If our big men were really so worthless, we'd be double teaming like mad in the post and that's not really happening.  The defensive problems are in our rotations, which includes most everybody on the team and not just big men.

3.  Doc put Sully in the starting lineup.  He exiled Darko to the bench after one bad showing and never even bothered to give Collins a chance to have a bad showing.  He then just kept shuffling the same players back and forth until the season was nearly 14th over.

Mike

Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #123 on: December 22, 2012, 10:16:41 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).

1.  We don't blitz the pick abecause our big men can't stop anyone.  We do it because our permieter players, particularly Rondo, are terrible at fighting over picks and staying with their man.

2.  If our big men were really so worthless, we'd be double teaming like mad in the post and that's not really happening.  The defensive problems are in our rotations, which includes most everybody on the team and not just big men.

3.  Doc put Sully in the starting lineup.  He exiled Darko to the bench after one bad showing and never even bothered to give Collins a chance to have a bad showing.  He then just kept shuffling the same players back and forth until the season was nearly 14th over.

Mike
1. Yes, and we don't blitz right now. We used to blitz a lot in previous seasons.

2. The problem with big men is that not that they give up points one-on-one. It's that they fail to rotate, giving up wide open layups. You don't fix that by double-teaming.

3. We didn't exile Darko after one bad showing. We just didn't play Darko (or Collins) at all. And Sullinger started because of our commitment to play Garnett at C, where he was excellent last year (I still think he's not best fit to play PF anymore, but when the personnel sucks so badly, you gotta try all combinations possible).

And by the time it became clear that the current lineup isn't performing, Darko wasn't here anymore.
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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #124 on: December 22, 2012, 11:08:09 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

EL OH EL

wait, wait, you are right, he put in collins. great change. fabulous. That definitely got us to attack the basket more right? instead of shooting bricks?
He works with what he's got. And right now, he's got Collins, Garnett, Bass, and Sullinger to work with.

So you envision the problem being us not attacking the basket enough? How do you envision this happening? Benching Pierce (still our best offensive player at this point, sadly)? Playing Fab Melo? Not taking Rondo out of the game?

The problem of this team is that none of the new players (+ Bass) are performing at a level which their career numbers suggest they can, and that after Darko's departure our depth at center suddenly vanished in thin air.

Add to this the fact that Melo is clearly not ready, and Sullinger has been progressing slower than expected, and you got a team with issues.

"Passing the ball like other teams do"? This team is averaging 23 assist per game, which is good for second in the NBA (and shooting 47% from the floor in the process, fifth in the NBA).

The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.

Is "doperforuble" a technical basketball term.  If it isn't, it should be. 
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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2012, 11:21:43 AM »

Offline celtics2

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The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.
[/quote]

Is "doperforuble" a technical basketball term.  If it isn't, it should be.
[/quote]

Thibodeau made Doc. Without him he's a run of the mill average NBA Coach. And he's too close to his players to begin with.

Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #126 on: December 22, 2012, 11:48:00 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).

1.  We don't blitz the pick abecause our big men can't stop anyone.  We do it because our permieter players, particularly Rondo, are terrible at fighting over picks and staying with their man.

2.  If our big men were really so worthless, we'd be double teaming like mad in the post and that's not really happening.  The defensive problems are in our rotations, which includes most everybody on the team and not just big men.

3.  Doc put Sully in the starting lineup.  He exiled Darko to the bench after one bad showing and never even bothered to give Collins a chance to have a bad showing.  He then just kept shuffling the same players back and forth until the season was nearly 14th over.

Mike
1. Yes, and we don't blitz right now. We used to blitz a lot in previous seasons.

2. The problem with big men is that not that they give up points one-on-one. It's that they fail to rotate, giving up wide open layups. You don't fix that by double-teaming.

3. We didn't exile Darko after one bad showing. We just didn't play Darko (or Collins) at all. And Sullinger started because of our commitment to play Garnett at C, where he was excellent last year (I still think he's not best fit to play PF anymore, but when the personnel sucks so badly, you gotta try all combinations possible).

And by the time it became clear that the current lineup isn't performing, Darko wasn't here anymore.

sorry, but assists do not= moving the ball like i have seen other teams do for wide open looks. we get assists. big deal. it does not mean we move it around like others. I'm talking about the 3 and 4 passes in arow to get to an open guy. making the extra passes. That is the point.

Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #127 on: December 22, 2012, 11:54:14 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.

Is "doperforuble" a technical basketball term.  If it isn't, it should be.
[/quote]

Thibodeau made Doc. Without him he's a run of the mill average NBA Coach. And he's too close to his players to begin with.
[/quote]

and you know what happens when you get too close? They will not listen to you like they used to. or they get mad. or both. No way to tell if doc is even telling them what to do offensively anyway after that aberration of a coaching performance last night.

Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2012, 11:57:34 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I'd caution those calling for a new coach to not expect an immediate change for the better with a new coach.

I see Doc's coaching style as very similar to Terry Francona's.  A lot of folks said he got too close to his team, too, and had become too lax.  Those were pretty legit criticisms, but bringing in a disciplinarian didn't work any better.


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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #129 on: December 22, 2012, 12:24:14 PM »

Offline LB3533

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Doc seems to know how to coach the team better when he has less to work with.

When Doc is given more pieces he doesn't quite know what to do.


Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #130 on: December 22, 2012, 12:49:54 PM »

Offline Edgar

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I'd caution those calling for a new coach to not expect an immediate change for the better with a new coach.

I see Doc's coaching style as very similar to Terry Francona's.  A lot of folks said he got too close to his team, too, and had become too lax.  Those were pretty legit criticisms, but bringing in a disciplinarian didn't work any better.

This is true
I think Doc can continue working if the rotation is shortened and get some D help Bradley being 50% and a starting big being another 50%.
Doc already showed he can work with 8 players, even with 6.

After that Doc with 8-9 players can easily have a .666 team at least and not the mirage theyre now.

If the team stays with 11 players at the same level it will be VERY difficult almost Imposible to doc to manage for whatever reason it is.
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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #131 on: December 22, 2012, 01:06:06 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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Out of the 30 NBA head coaches, a grand total of four have won NBA titles. To me, Doc  has been an excellent coach who understands his team and what it takes during a long, grueling regular season to get that team ready for the playoffs.

If you don't think Doc Rivers is a good coach, here's one question for you: Has there ever been a year in the KG era that he didn't get every drop of effort of his team in the playoffs? 

When he had all his weapons, he knew how to fire them and won.  When he didn't, he used whatever he could to get the team in position to win.  That's all you can ask of your head coach. 

I consider Doc a top level coach, with two of the other title winners, Pop and Carlisle, and Tom Thibs.  I feel that the Cs brass rightly feels the same way, and Doc will be here for as long as he wants to be here. 

Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #132 on: December 22, 2012, 01:13:15 PM »

Offline Edgar

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When he had all his weapons, he knew how to fire them and won. 

When he didn't, he used whatever he could to get the team in position to win.  That's all you can ask of your head coach. 

For the first parragraph I will say yes

For the second I am not sold

i am still worried why people consider this team still limited, on paper he have a super roster. If we had a Center on prime of course we should be better, but we should be better now too.

Very low % of people considered this team a .500 team 26 games ago.
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Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #133 on: December 22, 2012, 01:26:29 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Doc seems to know how to coach the team better when he has less to work with.

When Doc is given more pieces he doesn't quite know what to do.

Yup, overrated coach.

Re: Time for Doc to go.
« Reply #134 on: December 22, 2012, 01:27:39 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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I'd rather get rid of Rondo.

 

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