Author Topic: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?  (Read 6363 times)

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Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2012, 05:57:40 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

  You really have to understand why the team's offense isn't elite, namely offensive rebounding. We do fine in the categories that Rondo would have more control over.

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2012, 06:01:38 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). He does, however, get the team incredible looks which is why we shoot over 50% from the field as a team.

The looks Rondo gets our guys tend to be the lowest percentage looks in the game, though -- mid-range shots.


  While it's true that Rondo gets the guys shots they're comfortable taking, it's also true that we get a decent amount of shots at the rim and make them at a good clip, something that's impressive for a team that isn't loaded with low post players or even many "above the rim" types.

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2012, 07:06:16 AM »

Offline mctyson

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By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 07:10:56 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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With no "3 hall of famers to pass to", seeing that one betrayed us and two have regressed so far (with KG only able to play 30 or less a game), that argument is FINALLY DEAD.

This team is at least somewhat flawed with the wing-player overflow. I think the lack of chemistry is worsened because of this.

Very few players can fix the problems that this team has at the moment on their own.

I still believe this team will come around though. I think there are things Doc has to figure out.

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2012, 07:26:21 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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We happen to have a team full of excellent mid range shooters, so thats perfect. And if the midrange jump shot is the worst percentage shot in the game (its not, the 3 and long two are), then why are we shooting a better percentage that 20 other teams in the league.


Midrange jumpshot, long two -- tomato, tomahto.

The Celtics hit a good percentage of the long twos that they're taking, but they are still long twos, which limits the offense because it makes it harder to get second chance opportunities, to get to the line, or to get extra points from behind the arc.

And no, the 3 is not the worst percentage shot in the game, when you adjust for effective field goal percentage.


  Yes, I suppose if the two teams aren't identical we should act like they have nothing in common.

  For the record, you're claiming that you don't expect to see any improvement by the Celts over the course of the season?

My point is that the key problems with the Lakers are not really similar to the issues that the Celtics have, so there's not much point in drawing a comparison.

As for improvement, I don't doubt that there will be some, but to this point in the season I haven't seen much to make me think that there's a lot of room for improvement.  Last season, a drastic change to the starting lineup and a return to health brought more consistency and a great record over most of the second half.  In 2010, it was clear a team full of talented vets was just coasting in the regular season, stepping up occasionally for big games.  I just haven't seen that "extra gear" this season, really at all. 

I think they will be better by the end of the season, and they'll step it up in the playoffs for sure.  But are they suddenly going to turn into a horse drawn carriage after being a pumpkin all season?  I don't see it.

By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.

Well I guess the point is, do you think this season more or less represents the best we can expect from Rondo during the regular season? 

Rondo is definitely a different player in the post-season, but as far as leading the team to wins in the regular season, I think we pretty much know what to expect at this point.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 07:34:38 AM by PhoSita »
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Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2012, 07:40:27 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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That he can't carry a geriatic team with a bad ineffective bench?

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2012, 07:54:09 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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A bunch of 6 ' 8" role players are not as good as having a true 6' 11" or taller true Starting" center. who can play defend the paint

Good as he is , the team sucks without a Big dominating front line or youthful 4 's and 5's.

He is frustrated .

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2012, 08:05:00 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2012, 08:17:43 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

This is way I see it too.   Rondo is NOT the problem , but maybe the solution , he is the only person that can bring in a center with trade value.

Maybe Cousins will get himself in more trouble and he can be traded for without out giving up Rondo.

I'm convinced the best player we can get without giving up ROndo might be Varejao., somehow....PLEASE DANNY figure it out.

The fans and coachs alike are waitng to see AB play , and his play might determine who is traded AB or ROndo for a center.

Or the Celtics can keep the current team and play .500 ball for the next 3 years.  Possibly make the playoffs.

I would never trade Rondo /AB /Sully for Gortat.

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2012, 08:25:42 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

This is way I see it too.   Rondo is NOT the problem , but maybe the solution , he is the only person that can bring in a center with trade value.

Maybe Cousins will get himself in more trouble and he can be traded for without out giving up Rondo.

I'm convinced the best player we can get without giving up ROndo might be Varejao., somehow....PLEASE DANNY figure it out.

The fans and coachs alike are waitng to see AB play , and his play might determine who is traded AB or ROndo for a center.

Or the Celtics can keep the current team and play .500 ball for the next 3 years.  Possibly make the playoffs.

I would never trade Rondo /AB /Sully for Gortat.


If they do decide to shop Rondo, it is not going to be the Gortot/Side Show level player.


It will not be the Josh Smith level player.



It will be for someone they think can be a better foundation. 

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2012, 08:58:51 AM »

Offline RJ87

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I don't think its fair to judge Rondo against how the team is performing. The cold facts: after Rondo, are 3 most important players (Paul, KG, and JET) are 35+. Paul at 35 years old is more suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship caliber team, not the primary scoring weapon. KG is still very effective, but only if he's logging 28-30 mins a game.

Now when you start to look at the youth on our roster (Green, Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Wilcox), they're not stars, they're just role players. IMO, Rondo has made guys like Bass and Wilcox look fantastic - especially Bass last season. This season, Bass, Lee, and Green just haven't been locked in 100%. Rondo can pass those guys the ball in their spots thousands of times, but is it his fault that Lee & Bass brick open jumper after wide open jumper? Is it his fault that Green passes the ball back out instead of attacking the rim?

As I see it, Rondo is holding up his end of the bargain this season. There are just some things this team needs (a younger primary scorer, another big man to protect the paint - especially with KG out, Kendrick Perkin's passion/toughness transplanted into Jeff Green) that Rondo can't provide.

While I completely agree with you that Pierce, KG, and Terry are each too old to be the #1 offensive option (they're all good enough to be the #2 or #3, though), even at their age they are still better offensive options than the vast majority of young, in their prime scorers in the league.

If you're looking for offensive players significantly better than Pierce, KG, or Terry, you're starting to talk about young guys who are stars and who will get max contracts.  How realistic is it to expect the Celtics to get a player (or players) like that to put next to Rondo?

And this where the truth comes to light - if we can't get another near max caliber guy, can the Celtics be legitimate title contenders instead of just another middle of the pack playoff team? Look, I'd love to buy into the fantasy that Rondo + the 35 and over trio + a cast role players can get the C's an 18 banner, but I don't think this team is underperforming as severly as some think - it was always an miniscule shot that we'd be the dominant team of years past. I thought after this offseason that we would be an entertaining team to watch, we'd make the playoffs as a top 4 seed, but wouldn't have enough to beat Miami. In the 2012/2013 version of the NBA, you need another high impact player to truly compete for a title.

I'm on board with you.  I guess what I'm getting at here is -- are we in for the same deal as long as Rondo is our key guy?  Put another way, is this season going to more or less represent the status quo for the next 4-5+ years, similar to those teams built around Pierce and Walker? 

Are the 2012-2013 Celtics a lot closer to the 01-02 / 02-03 / 04-05 versions than the 09-10 / 10-11 / 11-12 versions (won't even mention the 07-08 and 08-09 versions)?

Again, I think your logic is seriously flawed. As long as Rondo is our "key guy" is not the concern you should have - any great player needs a good team around him to win. Look at Kobe Bryant - he couldn't win in LA post-Shaq until Gasol arrived. Or Lebron in Cleveland, 2 MVP seasons but couldn't get it done until he got to MIA to team up with D.Wade and Bosh. Rondo as our "key guy" isn't the issue, the problem is Rondo needs some serious help. What this season has told me about Rondo: our PG position is in good shape for the next 6-7 yrs. But I absolutely cannot say that about any other position on this team.

Btw, the looks Rondo gets for his teammates are low percentage midrange jumpshots - but what do you expect when you have a team full of jumpshooters? All he can do is breakdown the defense and get guys OPEN looks, which he does pretty darn well. He's not going to magically make Brandon Bass into a capable post player. He's a PG, not a miracle worker.
2021 Houston Rockets
PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2012, 09:04:31 AM »

Offline Chris

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I am really curious whether Rondo is hurt at the moment.  He started the season playing the most consistent basketball of his career, especially on the defensive end.  He was making up for the rest of the team missing every rotation, by working his butt off on defense, and to me, he looked like he was making the leap to the consistent player I have wanted him to be for years.

However, over the last 2-3 weeks, his defense especially has really regressed.  He hasn't been fighting through the screens like he was earlier in the season, and he is constantly chasing his man, rather than beating him to the spot.  And I think his lack of perimeter defense (combined with the fact that they don't have much else to pick up the slack in that regard) has been an untold story of the teams recent struggles.

Its easy to blame the big men for not protecting the rim, but when your PG can't keep his man in front of him, your big men don't have much of a chance.

But he also has been constantly stretching and working his legs, which makes me think that perhaps he is hurting more than he is letting on.  His aggressiveness offensively has also dropped off a bit, and I think that would also point to injury.

And this is the problem with this team, as it stands.  They are now Rondo's team.  I think they are now closer to Lebron's Cavs or Paul's Hornets, than the C's teams of the last few years.  They have talent around their star, but they really do need their star carrying them to be anything more than a very mediocre team.  And, unfortunately, Rondo isn't Lebron, and he needs to be 100% to be able to carry the team on both ends of the floor like that. 

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2012, 09:08:26 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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In regards to Chris's post--I hope this is just "regular season IDGAF" Rondo showing through.

'cause if he's trying to play through a nagging injury and exacerbates it enough that he can't play 100% in the playoffs, our season is done.
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Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2012, 09:10:56 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.

I think the Lakers are a resounding, neon-bright example of the truism that it is impossible to succeed in this league without a legitimate point guard.  As mediocre as Derek Fisher was statistically, he still had an intangible, steadying quality, and he worked in that triangle system.  Without the triangle, and without a legitimate point guard to run the offense, the Lakers are horribly inconsistent.
It isn't a truism because Fisher was bad. So were all the PGs that played with Jordan. So is Chalmers, in case you wanted to use the triangle offense argument to explain away all of Phil Jackson's bad PGs.

Pointing to "intangibles" is just a way to use magic to make a claim no one can respond to.

Championship teams are more likely to have good players at every position because they are very good teams. Yet no one position is mandatory, just an overall level of talent.

Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 09:31:31 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Rondo is having an excellent year. He's won a ring, most NBA players can't state that. He will die on the vine here in Boston unless traded because we are going nowhere but down. It will take at least 2 seasons to rebuild and given Celtics past Management moves becoming a contender for him is a myth.