Author Topic: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...  (Read 1341 times)

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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

RR on Offense:

Doc is dumb for designing a system where RR can hold the ball almost the entire shot clock (most of that time he's near the half-court just pounding the ball).

RR has shot the ball much better this season and most of the time he shoots it when they leave him and that's a great thing.

We have a bunch of guys who can get down the court with RR but as with his defense, he looks to try to conserve energy, he doesn't do much running up the court for fast-breaks, lately he just prefers to mainly WALK it up (I put some blame on our fast guys who don't run out enough, but I have noticed when they do, RR doesn't reward them enough, he usually just stops to get into half-court sets).

RR has also been very wild with the ball lately. He is too good to be playing with the ball like he's on the playground, this is the NBA not Streetball!



Paul Pierce on Offense:


Well I need to start this by saying the past few games (I think around the time Doc called them soft and when the players said they called a few people out), he has actually been better at not doing what I'm about to say is wrong with his offense.

Careless with the ball, ball hog, shot happy, Kobe-like player! He was literally coming down and not passing but taking the dumbest shots ever! I mean he had games where he would keep shooting even though he would miss like 4 times down the court (in a row), instead of passing to other guys who were shooting it very well (JET, KG, and Green). One game I caught myself thinking that PP was a little intimidated and jealous of Green because Green would start making all his shots a few times in a row and all of a sudden PP would literally stop sending the ball his way, he would come up and shoot as if to say "I'm still the man" even if he would miss multiple times in a row.

What happened to the PP who had our offense clicking last season when RR went down? This season (not as much of late) I would cringe when PP wasn't spot up shooting... he would dribble into traffic and be picked pocketed every time or he would lose control of the ball/flop and get no call.


PP on defense:

Worse than RR, I don't know if it's b/c of age or not caring. He can't keep up with his man and he gives space to them as if they were RR on offense (previous seasons). I can't/won't count the times PP has caught my eye b/c his man is shooting while he is trying his best (or not) to leap to challenge them well after he should! Hand down man down is all I'm getting from PP this season... well, he does get his hand up but what does it matter if 1)they have already shot 2) he's too far back his hand in the air doesn't bother them... guy just looks like a bird all game, most of the time he is either savvy enough not to land on the players or he isn't close enough to land on them anyway LOL. PP has been looking Sully-like on defense, too slow to recover!

Courtney Lee on Defense:

Is what he has been best at and he's been the best on the perimeter so I'm not getting into that.

CLee on Offense:

Non-factor most of our games (he has some good quarters shooting it)!

When he is out there without RR though, that's a different story... he becomes the guy who I thought we would see when we got him. He becomes aggressive and he controls the offense pretty well. It's almost like he turns into another person (sure sometimes him and RR click but he is better so far when he has the opportunity to be the ball handler or Barbosa-like, "get it and get yours").


JET on offense
:

He has been shooting great (has been a little hit and miss of late and first 2 games of the season, one quarter he's on and the next few he can't hit the ocean)... thing is for most of his time out there he ISN'T SHOOTING, Doc has made him Ray. 0.0

What made Doc turn a very versatile player on offense into a spot up shooter, I couldn't tell you but it's STUPID! I remember hating Ray for bogging down the offense turns out it's Doc's stupid decoy/give it to RR offensive schemes! I would apologize to Ray but he's an enemy so I don't care now! Jet, unlike Ray, usually leaves his man in the dust running around those screens, he's pretty much always wide open where Ray would get a breath of space. Yet for some reason he gets open and passes it (well lately he has been shooting more often). How you can have a shooter like JET not taking ONE shot for quarters at a time is beyond me... must be Doc's genius, that I as a laymen, can't comprehend. 0.0

Jet on Defense:


He has actually had very good defensive games here and there BUT we knew he couldn't/didn't defend well before we got him so I'm not wasting my time on that!


Bass on offense:


He's been okay I guess. He shoots it okay most of the time but he needs to know that that is what he is, a shooter, b/c all that driving/stopping passing awkwardly is not working for him. He needs to remember last season when he never thought about it he just shot it. He has been trying to do too much instead of doing what got him that fat contract. He is too hesitant a lot this season and it's b/c he's trying to show "someone" he is more than a spot up shooter offensively, which leads him to think too much and it looks a mess at times.

Bass on Defense:

Is better than people give him credit for. Yes, every now and then he looks lost out there but I have seen quite a few games where he has been solid (surely he's been our 3rd or 4th best defender a lot of the time). I also think he defends much better when his offense is clicking (funny, it seems like he goes harder for rebounds during that time too). He is like Green in that way, they get a fire in their bellies when they hit a couple shots.


Jeff Green on Offense:


One game he amazes and the next I want to ughhhhhh....

He has had a good stretch of games (not tonight).

If this man had half of KG's fire he could truly be great b/c he has the physical tools. You will see Green totally abuse a defender 3 times in a row on offense and then he will disappear the rest of the game... he will stop demanding the ball and stand there looking lost, either that or he just drives a couple feet and passes it away (soft as a cupcake as soon as someone steps to him). What's with all those dumb shots he takes instead of keep going in and slamming it down people's throats like he is capable of? He will go with a head of steam and instead of keep trucking through when a defender steps up (like LeBroid), he stops leans in and tosses up the shot... I'm looking like "you do know you were 3 steps from the basket right?". He does that and either gets blocked or the shot gets up there but doesn't fall most of time. Sometimes he'll go a couple possessions and look unstoppable but again, he doesn't have KG's fire to sustain the attack-mode for long periods of time. Even during Jeff's best games he will become invisible for long stretches while having little burst of greatness.

Jeff Green on Defense:

Like I said with Bass, when his shots fall, he defends better.

I have seen some sad defense by Green and it almost hurts my feelings b/c I can't understand why he is so terrible most of the time. He will stand around looking lost (like on offense) and he is easily pushed around! I wouldn't want to be the person who expects Green to rotate to cover my man while I help off... he is a terrible help defender most of the time. I would cuss him if I was KG or Wilcox! People wonder why he doesn't get more minutes... it's b/c his defense is GARBAGE a lot of the time! Doc knows as well as we do that Green can't defend the 4, so I'll excuse SOME of Green's D! At times Green can't defend a chair and we are going to put him on LeBroid? Hahahahahahahahaha, I'd rather Bass take that on (he actually has had good stretches against him shockingly)!!

Sully on Defense:


He has gotten much better over this short time. I think he will be a very good man-defender. Help defense and P&R? Thank Doc for mostly keeping KG and Wilcox with him after stupidly putting him out there with Bass at the beginning of the season! It must be tough being smart enough to know where to be but not being able to get there physically. With rebounds the ball doesn't think, so if you know by bounce where the ball is going to go, you can already be already be there to get it when it comes off... but on defense, the person with the ball can think/adjust and move faster than Sully can, so it's hard for him to stay with the person or recover to someone unless they are as slow as he is.

Sully on Offense:

When they actually use him on offense he is pretty good. I wish he would shoot it more often b/c he is open quite a bit and he's a good shooter. Sometimes I want to shake him and say, "SHOOT IT MAN!!!" I guess he doesn't want to ruffle feathers. Oh well.

Sully Rebounding:

He just knows where to be when the ball goes up or comes down. It's like a shooter, when he shoots he knows if the ball is close/going in or off. Like a pool player, you know if a ball is hit a certain way it will go to a certain spot or hit other balls into a certain direction/spot. I'm sure it's some scientific terms but I don't know them!

Wilcox on Defense:

Like Bass he has been better than ppl credit him for. I think he gets blamed for bad guard defense... I guess it's fault for over helping but he isn't as good as KG is and can't recover as well. He has had really good defensive efforts out there which has gotten KG a lot of rest. I think he will be better later in the season when he rounds into shape (he had surgery much later than Green... he's not too far removed from not being able to tie his shoes).

Wilcox of Offense:

LOL. Run the floor, P&R, catch a lob, and dunk it! Simple and effective. I expect nothing more or less.


Collins on Defense and Offense:

Pulls splinters from his butt after every game.


Barbosa on Offense:

Give it to him and move out of his way and be ready for the occasional pass for a spot-up shot.

Barbosa on Defense:


Better than I thought he would be but b/c he can't run the offense he isn't getting much floor time. He sticks to his man well.

I really don't expect much at all from Barbz on either ends b/c he barely can get on the court. Looks like Doc doesn't trust him much.



I'll save my opinion of AB after he's had time to play some this season.

Other 2 guys aren't with the big boys so it's w/e. I do watch all the games though.


I could be forgetting some things/someone and I'm sure I make no sense at times but I'm too tired to read through before I post... ;P. Hopefully others will give their opinions and tell me what they agree/disagree with.

Thanks for reading... or not.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 05:24:01 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Hi Shak my fellow insomaniac. I hope yours is not celtic-induced. You deserve a TP just for the time it took to break it down like only a passionate insightful poster could.

You did a great job breaking down the problems with the team... if you can see these things why cant the coach.

A team reflects the personality of its coach. It is clear that Doc is soft careless and does not pay attention to detail, therefore that is what we have on the court - a soft careless team that ignores the details of the game like rebounding, boxing out, defense, ball security, and scouting the opposition. The result is a team that plays 500 ball.

Look the only reason we had a turnaround last was the emergence of AB that only happened because it was forced on Doc by Ray's injury. Dont even get me started on all the forced substitutions that helped Doc beat Phil Jackson in 2008. If he did not have those forced substitutions we would still have 16 chips. Just not a very good coach.

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 09:04:08 AM »

Offline mgent

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RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 09:18:49 AM by mgent »
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 09:51:45 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Rondo D was decent before and he was not doing much differently.   It's the guys behind him, they are older.  I hate to say it but I think we ought to blow it up.   I would enjoy riding this out as I love this team but we ain't winning crap as it stands.

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 04:39:08 PM »

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Sully on Offense:

When they actually use him on offense he is pretty good. I wish he would shoot it more often b/c he is open quite a bit and he's a good shooter. Sometimes I want to shake him and say, "SHOOT IT MAN!!!" I guess he doesn't want to ruffle feathers. Oh well.

I want to see more Sully on offense. I want him to look for that midrange shot more often and I want to see Doc give him a few post ups. There are usually good matchups for a guy with Sully's (heft) to attack in those 2nd units. The team needs to try and develop that weapon for that playoffs. This is the time to do it.

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 04:45:16 PM »

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I would also like to see Chris Wilcox get some minutes alongside KG and Rondo.

Wilcox already has a great connection with Rondo but I think he'd have a very good one with Garnett too. KG's floor spacing clearing way for him under the paint. And defensively, Wilcox can guard his actual position and Boston can play it's best quick-footed defensive big man duo.

Basketball-Reference.com's lineup page says that Wilcox has only gotten 5 minutes alongside KG so far this season. Out of around 300 minutes played by Wilcox. I'd love to see Wilcox get more court time alongside KG and Rondo to see how it works together.

I also think Wilcox will be a much better fit alongside Terry and the rest of that starting lineup than Bass currently is. I think this is a good opportunity to work Wilcox into those type of lineups and build some chemistry while Avery Bradley is still out.

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 06:30:31 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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I would also like to see Chris Wilcox get some minutes alongside KG and Rondo.

Wilcox already has a great connection with Rondo but I think he'd have a very good one with Garnett too. KG's floor spacing clearing way for him under the paint. And defensively, Wilcox can guard his actual position and Boston can play it's best quick-footed defensive big man duo.

Basketball-Reference.com's lineup page says that Wilcox has only gotten 5 minutes alongside KG so far this season. Out of around 300 minutes played by Wilcox. I'd love to see Wilcox get more court time alongside KG and Rondo to see how it works together.

I also think Wilcox will be a much better fit alongside Terry and the rest of that starting lineup than Bass currently is. I think this is a good opportunity to work Wilcox into those type of lineups and build some chemistry while Avery Bradley is still out.

I would like to see that too, however, I think that's impossible b/c some1 has to sub in for KG and Doc isn't using Collins so it has to be Wilcox. Not only does he have to sub for KG he HAS to be there with Sully, no way do we want Bass and Sully together again. Wilcox probably isn't ready for more minutes then he already gets but maybe a little of that lineup when he rounds himself into his normal shape.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2012, 10:25:15 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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  TP!!Well said...Thats pretty much the way . I'm seeing things myself.

This organization need to  refocus , play  Defense , play smart with  energy  , and big men who dominate the the front line.

Pierce and Rondos poor defense and LAZY passing , and not taking care of the ball is killing the Celtics with turnovers.... Pierce is discusting.  He is stinking up the court , chucking shot , getting the ball stolen from him , throwing it away.  Bad play after bad play ...is killing us.

 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:30:20 PM by SHAQATTACK »

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 08:27:19 PM »

Offline mgent

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RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.
Haha I wasn't.  But I don't see the big deal since he's only doing it after he's already gotten beat.

Ray running through screens off the ball isn't the same as a PG coming off a screen with the ball.  As for Avery, he's bigger than Rondo and better at fighting through picks, but Rondo is still our second best defender behind KG.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 09:20:16 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.
Haha I wasn't.  But I don't see the big deal since he's only doing it after he's already gotten beat.

Ray running through screens off the ball isn't the same as a PG coming off a screen with the ball.  As for Avery, he's bigger than Rondo and better at fighting through picks, but Rondo is still our second best defender behind KG.

I agree that RR is our second best defender when he WANTS to be. As I said, he doesn't show it probably for a few reasons, one seems to be to conserve energy. He has only shown it a few times this season but he has chosen to gamble and/or be lazy more often this season.


What I forgot to add...

he is capable of doing great things defensively, he has to do so more often b/c of the other poor defenders he has around him (PP seeming like one of them this season). He has to be better b/c our bigs have to focus on helping the poorer defenders on the team, RR has the ability to handle his man (much better than he has)... if RR has his man on "lock" KG and our other "bigs" will have one less guy to worry about, leaving them free to focus on helping guys like Jet. Team defense becomes so much easier when the more people who can handle their own man, does so. This is why AB was so important, he allowed us to put out a group of 4 very good to great defenders on the court with Bass also defending better(his effort also made everyone else step theirs up). Imagine KG not having to exert so much energy on defense... don't imagine, remember last season... we were great defensively! If RR is just sending his men to our bigs (what you would want NORMALLY), that guys sucks our interior defenders, then who helps on Jet's man, Green's man, PP's (man this season)? There is no one there. RR has to be smarter on that front, he should be aware that our bigs can only help so many people... he is one who doesn't NEED that help (of course I know everyone needs help sometimes but RR is good enough to where he doesn't need it as much)! He has to pick it up for the good of the team.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 10:06:29 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23069
  • Tommy Points: 1082
RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.

  Think about what you're saying for a minute. When Ray runs through screens he'll frequently go from one side of the court to the other, hoping to get free of his man in order to hit a three. "Staying with Ray through picks" means that you don't let him get more than a step or two ahead of you so that you can close him down in the time it takes him to stop, turn, get the ball and shoot.

  If Rondo stays within a step or two of his man when they go through a screen they'll drive to the hoop and you'll be complaining about how poorly he's defending them because he "let them get into the lane". Would you expect the players staying with Ray through all those screens to play him the way you expect Rondo to play, so that instead of staying a step or two behind him they stay *in front* of him through those screens? We both know it would be impossible for them to do it.

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 10:23:27 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3059
  • Tommy Points: 410
RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.

  Think about what you're saying for a minute. When Ray runs through screens he'll frequently go from one side of the court to the other, hoping to get free of his man in order to hit a three. "Staying with Ray through picks" means that you don't let him get more than a step or two ahead of you so that you can close him down in the time it takes him to stop, turn, get the ball and shoot.

  If Rondo stays within a step or two of his man when they go through a screen they'll drive to the hoop and you'll be complaining about how poorly he's defending them because he "let them get into the lane". Would you expect the players staying with Ray through all those screens to play him the way you expect Rondo to play, so that instead of staying a step or two behind him they stay *in front* of him through those screens? We both know it would be impossible for them to do it.

What? I don't want RR to defend people the way you would defend Ray, it was said RR weighs too little to constantly fight over screens so that his man doesn't have easy clearance to the lane that I was referring to (something along those lines), I argue that people fight through multiple screens for entire games to stick with Ray. RR should have no problem fighting over them. But fighting through a screen is really not the point b/c when RR let's his man into the lane there is no screen being set, RR just steps aside and tries the poke from behind which then causes a negative chain reaction.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth b/c the point that RR has been bad defensively seems to be obvious to me!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 10:38:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23069
  • Tommy Points: 1082
RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.

  Think about what you're saying for a minute. When Ray runs through screens he'll frequently go from one side of the court to the other, hoping to get free of his man in order to hit a three. "Staying with Ray through picks" means that you don't let him get more than a step or two ahead of you so that you can close him down in the time it takes him to stop, turn, get the ball and shoot.

  If Rondo stays within a step or two of his man when they go through a screen they'll drive to the hoop and you'll be complaining about how poorly he's defending them because he "let them get into the lane". Would you expect the players staying with Ray through all those screens to play him the way you expect Rondo to play, so that instead of staying a step or two behind him they stay *in front* of him through those screens? We both know it would be impossible for them to do it.

What? I don't want RR to defend people the way you would defend Ray, it was said RR weighs too little to constantly fight over screens so that his man doesn't have easy clearance to the lane that I was referring to (something along those lines), I argue that people fight through multiple screens for entire games to stick with Ray. RR should have no problem fighting over them. But fighting through a screen is really not the point b/c when RR let's his man into the lane there is no screen being set, RR just steps aside and tries the poke from behind which then causes a negative chain reaction.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth b/c the point that RR has been bad defensively seems to be obvious to me!

  Again, sticking with Ray means trailing behind him but not too far behind, which you'd call bad defense from Rondo. And I'd be surprised if people got round Rondo (in the half court, not in transition) without a screen more than 10% of the time. They use screens almost every time.

Re: My Perspective (I probably don't know what I'm talking about LOL)...
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 12:11:56 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6167
  • Tommy Points: 728
RR and defense:

I have come to really love RR as a player (started last season) BUT I need to say, his defense has been TERRIBLE most of the time!

Yes, gambling w/ his "poke away from behind D" works a few times a game but you have to only imagine (or see) the times it doesn't work! I would rather he NOT get the steals from that "Ole D" and have him stay in front of his man more... b/c I believe, while getting those poke-aways are great, it's more damaging to the team b/c you aren't going to even get half of the balls you poke for! I don't mind him doing it once in a while (b/c he is one of the best at it), but you can't do that every other time on defense (AT LEAST)! What I'm saying is, sure 5 steals look great but what about the 20 times your man got by you EASILY and burned you with a bucket of his own or an assist (or makes our bigs suck to them and they are the start of a chain of passes that cause our bigs/players not to be able to keep up with the ball and get back to their men)!

It's not that RR can't stay with his man most of the game, he plays great D when he chooses to (against the likes of Carmelo, Wade, and LeBron even). I just think he is trying to conserve energy for the offensive end and b/c Doc plays him TOO DANG LONG!

I love seeing this arguement for Rondo being a bad defender.

When was the last time you actually saw Rondo LET his man get by him to poke it away? 

There's just no way a 170 pound guy is going to fight through a ~250+ pound guy and end up on the other side ahead of his man.  No PG in the history of the game has been able to stay in front of their man consistently for 38 minutes.  The whole point of the pick and roll is that it's UNGUARDABLE if executed properly.

The reason he's done so great in limited time against guys like LeBron is because they call an iso and try to muscle him one on one.

I didn't see anyone complaining when he pretty much won the Mavs game by poking the ball from behind.

Were you in chat that game b/c I definitely was complaining about it! I clearly said it's fine to do it occasionally but RR does it far too much! AB and many others stay with their men through screens so your weight things is moot. People stayed with Ray after MANY screens! Of course no one can do it ALL game but RR gambles too much. If you think his defense has been good this season then I don't know what you have been looking at b/c my eyes saw different.

We will agree to disagree. Thanks for your comment.

  Think about what you're saying for a minute. When Ray runs through screens he'll frequently go from one side of the court to the other, hoping to get free of his man in order to hit a three. "Staying with Ray through picks" means that you don't let him get more than a step or two ahead of you so that you can close him down in the time it takes him to stop, turn, get the ball and shoot.

  If Rondo stays within a step or two of his man when they go through a screen they'll drive to the hoop and you'll be complaining about how poorly he's defending them because he "let them get into the lane". Would you expect the players staying with Ray through all those screens to play him the way you expect Rondo to play, so that instead of staying a step or two behind him they stay *in front* of him through those screens? We both know it would be impossible for them to do it.

What? I don't want RR to defend people the way you would defend Ray, it was said RR weighs too little to constantly fight over screens so that his man doesn't have easy clearance to the lane that I was referring to (something along those lines), I argue that people fight through multiple screens for entire games to stick with Ray. RR should have no problem fighting over them. But fighting through a screen is really not the point b/c when RR let's his man into the lane there is no screen being set, RR just steps aside and tries the poke from behind which then causes a negative chain reaction.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth b/c the point that RR has been bad defensively seems to be obvious to me!
My only point was that you can't compare them like that.  Chasing a guy around screens with coaches yelling to you what the field looks like is not nearly the same as trying to keep a guy with the BALL in FRONT of you when that PG can pull up or do any variety of things because he has all the control in that situation.

There's just literally thousands of things different between the 2 situations, probably the biggest one being that the defender who is guarding the player picking off Ray can come out and deny the pass while his teammates closes out the distance.  In no way can you compare a pure shooter running through a screen to a PG and a big running the pick and roll.

And if strength isn't at least a major factor in pushing guys out of your way and fighting through picks then you have to tell me what is.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

 

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