Author Topic: Mediocre.  (Read 3055 times)

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Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 04:07:55 PM »

Offline Chris

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This team is mediocre right not.  That is undeniable.

I do disagree that there is no chance they can't be better than mediocre by the end of the year though.  I think there is still room for growth on the current roster.

But, even if there isn't, at the moment, I prefer mediocre over terrible.  I am not ready for them to bottom out yet.  I think they have done a good job with what they have had to work with. 

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 04:18:54 PM »

Offline blink

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maybe its time to apologize to those of us that called this early on in the season. Oh and those who thought it was wise not to play the bigs we had on the roster.

Haha. Yes, you're totally right. Now that 1/4 of the season is over, it is officially time for everyone who had hope for the 2012-2013 Celtics to kiss your ***. I'm so glad you're here.


hahaha that made me laugh out loud.  tp for you!

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 04:25:43 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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I think this should of been the obvious, but a 35 year old sf, 35 year old c, 35 year old bench sg are our 3 best scorers, all of which are jumpshooters.

  If we take an average amount of shots at the rim and make a better than average amount of them is that a real problem?

So you don't think this is a problem? What team has ever won a title with their 3 best scorers past their prime at age 35, and all are jumpshooters?

  First of all, "when has this exact combination of circumstances happened" is a silly way to decide how likely something is. Secondly it's pretty likely that Rondo will be among our top 3 scorers in the playoffs, and it's not inconceivable that Green or Bradley will be as well.

I don't think it's a bad way to look at it at all. How can we predict the future? Look to the past.

  That's how we knew, from 12 or so years of history, that Dirk was never going to lead a team to a title. As for your question, why do they have to be 35 and not 32? Why do they need to be jumpshooters? It's needlessly specific.

As far as Rondo, he could very well be a top 3 scorer, but let's be honest, he's not going to be the one taking big shots down the stretch of big playoff games. Those plays will be drawn up for KG, PP, and Jet.

  Let's be honest, at the time we were eliminated last year he'd made as many big shots down the stretch in big playoff games as almost anyone else in the league.

And I have 0 confidence that Green or Bradley can be a top 3 scorer for us in the postseason. What have they ever done in a Celtic uniform that shows you they can do that? That's a lot of faith with little evidence.

  What's Terry ever done in a Celtics uniform that shows you that he can do that? It's not that I have more faith on less evidence than you, I just don't limit that faith as arbitrarily as you do.

Age is pretty important. There is a big difference between 32-35. Give me a 32 yr old Pierce.

As good as Rondo was last postseason, can we expect a pg who's known to be a shaky shooter to repeat that performance? Not to mention he needs help, which leads me back to not thinking his old, over the hill, jumpshooting teammates can play well enough.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 04:37:24 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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thats about  it , I can live with it a while,  just don't want this team to be "LOST" , set adrift as a so -so team for the next 20 years.  :-X

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 04:59:06 PM »

Offline Chris

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thats about  it , I can live with it a while,  just don't want this team to be "LOST" , set adrift as a so -so team for the next 20 years.  :-X

Agreed.  I think we, as a fan base, have a bit of an irrational fear of mediocrity, due to the extreme success, followed by the 20 year drought. 

In reality, a couple years of mediocrity, is not the same as 20 years of it.  There was a LOT of mismanagement in those 20 years, and it wasn't a simple case of them waiting too long to blow it up. 

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 05:59:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I think this should of been the obvious, but a 35 year old sf, 35 year old c, 35 year old bench sg are our 3 best scorers, all of which are jumpshooters.

  If we take an average amount of shots at the rim and make a better than average amount of them is that a real problem?

So you don't think this is a problem? What team has ever won a title with their 3 best scorers past their prime at age 35, and all are jumpshooters?

  First of all, "when has this exact combination of circumstances happened" is a silly way to decide how likely something is. Secondly it's pretty likely that Rondo will be among our top 3 scorers in the playoffs, and it's not inconceivable that Green or Bradley will be as well.

I don't think it's a bad way to look at it at all. How can we predict the future? Look to the past.

  That's how we knew, from 12 or so years of history, that Dirk was never going to lead a team to a title. As for your question, why do they have to be 35 and not 32? Why do they need to be jumpshooters? It's needlessly specific.

As far as Rondo, he could very well be a top 3 scorer, but let's be honest, he's not going to be the one taking big shots down the stretch of big playoff games. Those plays will be drawn up for KG, PP, and Jet.

  Let's be honest, at the time we were eliminated last year he'd made as many big shots down the stretch in big playoff games as almost anyone else in the league.

And I have 0 confidence that Green or Bradley can be a top 3 scorer for us in the postseason. What have they ever done in a Celtic uniform that shows you they can do that? That's a lot of faith with little evidence.

  What's Terry ever done in a Celtics uniform that shows you that he can do that? It's not that I have more faith on less evidence than you, I just don't limit that faith as arbitrarily as you do.

Age is pretty important. There is a big difference between 32-35. Give me a 32 yr old Pierce.

As good as Rondo was last postseason, can we expect a pg who's known to be a shaky shooter to repeat that performance? Not to mention he needs help, which leads me back to not thinking his old, over the hill, jumpshooting teammates can play well enough.

  When healthy Rondo's generally better in the playoffs than the regular season and usually better than the year before. What are your expectations for him?

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 07:28:20 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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I think this should of been the obvious, but a 35 year old sf, 35 year old c, 35 year old bench sg are our 3 best scorers, all of which are jumpshooters.

  If we take an average amount of shots at the rim and make a better than average amount of them is that a real problem?

So you don't think this is a problem? What team has ever won a title with their 3 best scorers past their prime at age 35, and all are jumpshooters?

  First of all, "when has this exact combination of circumstances happened" is a silly way to decide how likely something is. Secondly it's pretty likely that Rondo will be among our top 3 scorers in the playoffs, and it's not inconceivable that Green or Bradley will be as well.

I don't think it's a bad way to look at it at all. How can we predict the future? Look to the past.

  That's how we knew, from 12 or so years of history, that Dirk was never going to lead a team to a title. As for your question, why do they have to be 35 and not 32? Why do they need to be jumpshooters? It's needlessly specific.

As far as Rondo, he could very well be a top 3 scorer, but let's be honest, he's not going to be the one taking big shots down the stretch of big playoff games. Those plays will be drawn up for KG, PP, and Jet.

  Let's be honest, at the time we were eliminated last year he'd made as many big shots down the stretch in big playoff games as almost anyone else in the league.

And I have 0 confidence that Green or Bradley can be a top 3 scorer for us in the postseason. What have they ever done in a Celtic uniform that shows you they can do that? That's a lot of faith with little evidence.

  What's Terry ever done in a Celtics uniform that shows you that he can do that? It's not that I have more faith on less evidence than you, I just don't limit that faith as arbitrarily as you do.

Age is pretty important. There is a big difference between 32-35. Give me a 32 yr old Pierce.

As good as Rondo was last postseason, can we expect a pg who's known to be a shaky shooter to repeat that performance? Not to mention he needs help, which leads me back to not thinking his old, over the hill, jumpshooting teammates can play well enough.

  When healthy Rondo's generally better in the playoffs than the regular season and usually better than the year before. What are your expectations for him?

Even if he was to play that good again, his teammates aren't good enough. I know you think that 35 yr old, past their prime, jump shooters will cut it, but I don't. History shows you need more.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 08:53:12 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I think this should of been the obvious, but a 35 year old sf, 35 year old c, 35 year old bench sg are our 3 best scorers, all of which are jumpshooters.

  If we take an average amount of shots at the rim and make a better than average amount of them is that a real problem?

So you don't think this is a problem? What team has ever won a title with their 3 best scorers past their prime at age 35, and all are jumpshooters?

  First of all, "when has this exact combination of circumstances happened" is a silly way to decide how likely something is. Secondly it's pretty likely that Rondo will be among our top 3 scorers in the playoffs, and it's not inconceivable that Green or Bradley will be as well.

I don't think it's a bad way to look at it at all. How can we predict the future? Look to the past.

  That's how we knew, from 12 or so years of history, that Dirk was never going to lead a team to a title. As for your question, why do they have to be 35 and not 32? Why do they need to be jumpshooters? It's needlessly specific.

As far as Rondo, he could very well be a top 3 scorer, but let's be honest, he's not going to be the one taking big shots down the stretch of big playoff games. Those plays will be drawn up for KG, PP, and Jet.

  Let's be honest, at the time we were eliminated last year he'd made as many big shots down the stretch in big playoff games as almost anyone else in the league.

And I have 0 confidence that Green or Bradley can be a top 3 scorer for us in the postseason. What have they ever done in a Celtic uniform that shows you they can do that? That's a lot of faith with little evidence.

  What's Terry ever done in a Celtics uniform that shows you that he can do that? It's not that I have more faith on less evidence than you, I just don't limit that faith as arbitrarily as you do.

Age is pretty important. There is a big difference between 32-35. Give me a 32 yr old Pierce.

As good as Rondo was last postseason, can we expect a pg who's known to be a shaky shooter to repeat that performance? Not to mention he needs help, which leads me back to not thinking his old, over the hill, jumpshooting teammates can play well enough.

  When healthy Rondo's generally better in the playoffs than the regular season and usually better than the year before. What are your expectations for him?

Even if he was to play that good again, his teammates aren't good enough. I know you think that 35 yr old, past their prime, jump shooters will cut it, but I don't. History shows you need more.

  First they can't be the top 3 scorers because of their age, now they can't even be among your top players? I guess the only way to contend is to just purge the roster of over 30 year olds...

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 11:44:56 PM »

Offline ScottHow

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I think this should of been the obvious, but a 35 year old sf, 35 year old c, 35 year old bench sg are our 3 best scorers, all of which are jumpshooters.

  If we take an average amount of shots at the rim and make a better than average amount of them is that a real problem?

So you don't think this is a problem? What team has ever won a title with their 3 best scorers past their prime at age 35, and all are jumpshooters?

  First of all, "when has this exact combination of circumstances happened" is a silly way to decide how likely something is. Secondly it's pretty likely that Rondo will be among our top 3 scorers in the playoffs, and it's not inconceivable that Green or Bradley will be as well.

I don't think it's a bad way to look at it at all. How can we predict the future? Look to the past.

  That's how we knew, from 12 or so years of history, that Dirk was never going to lead a team to a title. As for your question, why do they have to be 35 and not 32? Why do they need to be jumpshooters? It's needlessly specific.

As far as Rondo, he could very well be a top 3 scorer, but let's be honest, he's not going to be the one taking big shots down the stretch of big playoff games. Those plays will be drawn up for KG, PP, and Jet.

  Let's be honest, at the time we were eliminated last year he'd made as many big shots down the stretch in big playoff games as almost anyone else in the league.

And I have 0 confidence that Green or Bradley can be a top 3 scorer for us in the postseason. What have they ever done in a Celtic uniform that shows you they can do that? That's a lot of faith with little evidence.

  What's Terry ever done in a Celtics uniform that shows you that he can do that? It's not that I have more faith on less evidence than you, I just don't limit that faith as arbitrarily as you do.

Age is pretty important. There is a big difference between 32-35. Give me a 32 yr old Pierce.

As good as Rondo was last postseason, can we expect a pg who's known to be a shaky shooter to repeat that performance? Not to mention he needs help, which leads me back to not thinking his old, over the hill, jumpshooting teammates can play well enough.

  When healthy Rondo's generally better in the playoffs than the regular season and usually better than the year before. What are your expectations for him?

Even if he was to play that good again, his teammates aren't good enough. I know you think that 35 yr old, past their prime, jump shooters will cut it, but I don't. History shows you need more.

  First they can't be the top 3 scorers because of their age, now they can't even be among your top players? I guess the only way to contend is to just purge the roster of over 30 year olds...

Where did I say that? I said I'd take a 32 year old Pierce. I'm not quite sure where this debate can go anymore since you discount history and ignore the fact that if the Celtics won this year they would probably be the oldest, if not close, top two scoring threats(Pierce, KG) in NBA history for a champion.

Not to mention thinking that Green and Bradley are going to somehow do things they've yet to ever do.

If that's how it goes I'd like to change it too....
Rondo is going to avg 30ppg 15apg 7rpg while Sully is going to avg 20 and 10. I don't have any proof they can/will do it, but I believe it will happen.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 06:20:48 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I think this should of been the obvious, but a 35 year old sf, 35 year old c, 35 year old bench sg are our 3 best scorers, all of which are jumpshooters.

  If we take an average amount of shots at the rim and make a better than average amount of them is that a real problem?

So you don't think this is a problem? What team has ever won a title with their 3 best scorers past their prime at age 35, and all are jumpshooters?

  First of all, "when has this exact combination of circumstances happened" is a silly way to decide how likely something is. Secondly it's pretty likely that Rondo will be among our top 3 scorers in the playoffs, and it's not inconceivable that Green or Bradley will be as well.

I don't think it's a bad way to look at it at all. How can we predict the future? Look to the past.

  That's how we knew, from 12 or so years of history, that Dirk was never going to lead a team to a title. As for your question, why do they have to be 35 and not 32? Why do they need to be jumpshooters? It's needlessly specific.

As far as Rondo, he could very well be a top 3 scorer, but let's be honest, he's not going to be the one taking big shots down the stretch of big playoff games. Those plays will be drawn up for KG, PP, and Jet.

  Let's be honest, at the time we were eliminated last year he'd made as many big shots down the stretch in big playoff games as almost anyone else in the league.

And I have 0 confidence that Green or Bradley can be a top 3 scorer for us in the postseason. What have they ever done in a Celtic uniform that shows you they can do that? That's a lot of faith with little evidence.

  What's Terry ever done in a Celtics uniform that shows you that he can do that? It's not that I have more faith on less evidence than you, I just don't limit that faith as arbitrarily as you do.

Age is pretty important. There is a big difference between 32-35. Give me a 32 yr old Pierce.

As good as Rondo was last postseason, can we expect a pg who's known to be a shaky shooter to repeat that performance? Not to mention he needs help, which leads me back to not thinking his old, over the hill, jumpshooting teammates can play well enough.

  When healthy Rondo's generally better in the playoffs than the regular season and usually better than the year before. What are your expectations for him?

Even if he was to play that good again, his teammates aren't good enough. I know you think that 35 yr old, past their prime, jump shooters will cut it, but I don't. History shows you need more.

  First they can't be the top 3 scorers because of their age, now they can't even be among your top players? I guess the only way to contend is to just purge the roster of over 30 year olds...

Where did I say that? I said I'd take a 32 year old Pierce. I'm not quite sure where this debate can go anymore since you discount history and ignore the fact that if the Celtics won this year they would probably be the oldest, if not close, top two scoring threats(Pierce, KG) in NBA history for a champion.

  Your original claim was that our top 3 scorers were going to be over 35. Now it's that two of our top scorers will be that old. I don't think that you've definitively shown that two players in their mid-late 30s can't be among the better players on a title team, and even if you had you'd need a reason that makes it an unlikely occurrence. Again, look at the Mavs team from 2 years ago. Can you find other cases where the best scorer was a pf or c and took as many threes as Dirk? If you can't, does history tell you that the Mavs couldn't have won that title?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 06:46:12 AM by BballTim »

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 09:19:58 AM »

Offline winsomme

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This team is mediocre right not.  That is undeniable.

I do disagree that there is no chance they can't be better than mediocre by the end of the year though.  I think there is still room for growth on the current roster.

But, even if there isn't, at the moment, I prefer mediocre over terrible.  I am not ready for them to bottom out yet.  I think they have done a good job with what they have had to work with.

But there are very clear reasons for the team's current mediocre play. It's not some abstract condition that we simply have to live with. It's the result of decisions that were somewhat misguided, but correctable if acknowledged.

If you look at the players that Danny added to this roster or moved into more important roles, they are downgrades defensively (either as an individual or team defender or both).

last year we had:

Dooling
Bradley
Quisey
Pavlovic
Pietrus
Stiemsma
Hollins

this year (thus far) we have:

Terry
Barbosa
Lee
Green
Sully
Wilcox

These are downgrades defensively. The perimeter players have been either overmatched speed or size-wise, and the low post guys have definitely been overmatched size-wise.

This can be addressed, however, and my feeling is that Danny will move to do so because the problem is so glaring. We need more physically capable defensive players. I wish Danny had picked up Pietrus because I think the addition of him and Bradley would have solidified the perimeter defense and would have freed up Green to be moved for a center (like Gortat or Varejao) but I'm still feeling that Danny will make moves to make the Cs as dangerous as they were last year.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2012, 02:27:10 PM »

Offline Shad0wman

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Ask yourself this. Look at the Knicks and then go, hmmm do I want a tired starting KG over Sheed Wallace coming off of bench in the playoffs? Now do that with EVERY SINGLE PLAYER ON EACH TEAM. BOOM! Guess who's going to win these matchups. I don't even want to imagine Melo and Pierce match up right now, its a nightmare. Celtics won't even sniff Knicks butt this year. This team is seriously misshapen and completely mismanaged.

The only conciliation I can offer is if your misplaced hope and faith in this team doesn't upset you too much down the road, then this team is doing just fine.

I am slowly learning not to wear the Celtics on my sleeve as I tend to do. An issue I have, yea I know, shut up.

I do like this post as a counterpoint to my C's are bad thread.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2012, 02:55:15 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Ask yourself this. Look at the Knicks and then go, hmmm do I want a tired starting KG over Sheed Wallace coming off of bench in the playoffs? Now do that with EVERY SINGLE PLAYER ON EACH TEAM. BOOM! Guess who's going to win these matchups. I don't even want to imagine Melo and Pierce match up right now, its a nightmare. Celtics won't even sniff Knicks butt this year. This team is seriously misshapen and completely mismanaged.

  If Bradley comes back playing like he did last year then we're probably better at both guard spots and at center, and we don't know how Amare and Melo will look together since they haven't lit the world on fire in the past. If we're playing well and we get them in the playoffs I'd say it's at worst a 50/50 series.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2012, 04:58:21 PM »

Offline celtics2

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23 games in and 6 games behind the Knicks. What was the biggest gap between the Celts and Philly last year? 23 games and the defense still stinks most nights. 23 games and it is even more clear to me that this is a team of mismatched parts with no inside presence.23 games and Pierce looks really old, while Garnett gets older.  Cannot wait for Danny to start making moves.

I thought after 20 games that this team would be rolling?

Oohhhhh it's rolling, look out below.

Re: Mediocre.
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2012, 08:24:02 PM »

Offline mrpoundforpound

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Slightly off topic, but how are the Bulls 13-9 missing their best player who is also one of the best players in the NBA? And how do he Knicks have one of the best records in the league missing one of its best players? And how does Minnesota have a better record than the Celts missing one of its best players? And how all of a sudden has Golden State become better than th Celts? And so on.

They have bigs who rebound.
And they have a lot of talent and are very deep.  The Bulls have always played well without Rose, but they will not make a deep playoff run without him.

True with CHicago and the Dubs. Especially the Dubs, that team is deep as heck.

Not Minny though. They have rebounders with Pek and Love, and AK47 to some extent. Giving more possesions for their team keeps them close in games.

Not true on golden state. who on their bench is as good as JG on our bench. the dude was a top option on a playoff team and gonna be vying for 6th man by the end of this year.

 

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