Author Topic: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)  (Read 13739 times)

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #195 on: January 16, 2013, 06:59:49 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Too many people seem to want to appoint themselves as arbiters of Constitutionality these days.

This is probably the best thing in the entire thread.

Mostly because I really get sick of people, persons, and organizations acting like they're the only ones who have ever read the Constitution.

Like it or not, there are some things best left to those of us qualified to study the law--you know, like the law. Just because everyone is allowed to voice their opinions does not mean that all opinions are given equal weight (nor should they be).

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Can't read the entire thread but cone people.

Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #196 on: January 16, 2013, 07:18:39 PM »

Offline Quinn

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People, the world is really messed up.

If things like 9/11, mass killings in Aurora and Sandyhook all can happen then our government oppressing our rights to an even higher level can happen.

With everything that has happened, it shouldn't surprise anyone if conspiracy theorists end up being right.

Why do you choose to live in a country with a government that you believe would (or at least, could) massacre 3,000 of its own citizens, or ruthlessly execute young children?

Quite frankly a lot of people don't choose to live here, just born and raised and financially it's impossible to leave.
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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #197 on: January 16, 2013, 08:36:51 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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People, the world is really messed up.

If things like 9/11, mass killings in Aurora and Sandyhook all can happen then our government oppressing our rights to an even higher level can happen.

With everything that has happened, it shouldn't surprise anyone if conspiracy theorists end up being right.

Why do you choose to live in a country with a government that you believe would (or at least, could) massacre 3,000 of its own citizens, or ruthlessly execute young children?

Quite frankly a lot of people don't choose to live here, just born and raised and financially it's impossible to leave.

In all serious, if I thought my government murdered 3,000 citizens to justify a foreign war, or executed 20 school children to justify gun control, I'd get my money together and move to Canada. 

I mean, who's to say that the government isn't going to come for any one of us if that's the case?  What amount of money is worth your family's safety and freedom?

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2013, 04:22:57 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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School in Michigan took NRA's advice and hired a retired sheriff with 30+ years on the job experience who was most recently a firearms instructor as full time security:



Been a bit rough so far.

Lapeer, MI -- A security officer at a Lapeer charter school left a firearm unattended in a school bathroom on Monday, Jan. 14, a school official said.
The Chatfield School The Chatfield School in Lapeer. Lauren Justice | MLive.com 

The security officer "made a breach in security protocol" and left an unloaded weapon in a restroom "for a few moments," said Chatfield School Director Matt Young.

Young said the school has been in contact with local authorities about the matter and wouldn't discuss any possible repercussion for the officer, calling it "a personnel matter." Young also declined to name the security officer.

"The school has put additional security procedures in place that follow local law enforcement practices and guidelines," Young said in a statement. "At no time was any student involved in this breach of protocol. We will continue to work on improving school security."

Young stressed that no children were exposed to the handgun or put in danger, and declined to comment more on specifics of the incident.

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #199 on: January 20, 2013, 04:46:10 PM »

Offline LB3533

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People, the world is really messed up.

If things like 9/11, mass killings in Aurora and Sandyhook all can happen then our government oppressing our rights to an even higher level can happen.

With everything that has happened, it shouldn't surprise anyone if conspiracy theorists end up being right.

Why do you choose to live in a country with a government that you believe would (or at least, could) massacre 3,000 of its own citizens, or ruthlessly execute young children?

Quite frankly a lot of people don't choose to live here, just born and raised and financially it's impossible to leave.

In all serious, if I thought my government murdered 3,000 citizens to justify a foreign war, or executed 20 school children to justify gun control, I'd get my money together and move to Canada. 

I mean, who's to say that the government isn't going to come for any one of us if that's the case?  What amount of money is worth your family's safety and freedom?


Roy, there are 3 options which one could basically follow....

1.) Stay and just keep taking it up on the chin.

2.) Stay and help defend the righteous cause.

3.) Retreat and move to another place and deal with other issues which that may entail.


(4.) Stay and join the nefarious ways and maybe one can profit and gain, but lose your soul (if we have one or if you believe in this sort of thing) in the process.


I have not yet made up my mind or heart on which path to take. If I had family and little children, those things would definitely speed up my thought processing and decision making.

There are a ton more good people in the USA, but more and more each day are lost to the brainwashing of mainstream and conventional group thinking.

I still believe in this country's founding principles and I still believe this mess is worth fixing and its people worth saving.

 

Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #200 on: January 20, 2013, 05:04:12 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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People, the world is really messed up.

If things like 9/11, mass killings in Aurora and Sandyhook all can happen then our government oppressing our rights to an even higher level can happen.

With everything that has happened, it shouldn't surprise anyone if conspiracy theorists end up being right.

Why do you choose to live in a country with a government that you believe would (or at least, could) massacre 3,000 of its own citizens, or ruthlessly execute young children?

Quite frankly a lot of people don't choose to live here, just born and raised and financially it's impossible to leave.

In all serious, if I thought my government murdered 3,000 citizens to justify a foreign war, or executed 20 school children to justify gun control, I'd get my money together and move to Canada. 

I mean, who's to say that the government isn't going to come for any one of us if that's the case?  What amount of money is worth your family's safety and freedom?


Roy, there are 3 options which one could basically follow....

1.) Stay and just keep taking it up on the chin.

2.) Stay and help defend the righteous cause.

3.) Retreat and move to another place and deal with other issues which that may entail.


(4.) Stay and join the nefarious ways and maybe one can profit and gain, but lose your soul (if we have one or if you believe in this sort of thing) in the process.


I have not yet made up my mind or heart on which path to take. If I had family and little children, those things would definitely speed up my thought processing and decision making.

There are a ton more good people in the USA, but more and more each day are lost to the brainwashing of mainstream and conventional group thinking.

I still believe in this country's founding principles and I still believe this mess is worth fixing and its people worth saving.

 

The bonus, and I'm absolutely not directing this as you personally LB, of 'staying and defending the righteous cause' is that basically that's limited to going to the firing range, buying lots of crap, and posting obnoxious things on facebook and frequenting fringe forums.

The scary thing about 'staying and defending the righteous cause' is that there are hundreds of heavily armed highly strung conspiracy theorists out there who are preparing for a fight that really shouldn't ever come, and I worry that eventually they'll get a bit antsy in the pantsy. We saw it in Waco, and resulting from that we saw it in Oklahoma City. McVeigh of course was defending a 'righteous cause', was defending what he thought was a nation led astray by a corrupt government.

Not that everyone who goes to infowars is a militant terrorist in the making, not that most, or half, or any number of them are. I can't possibly know that, and I have no reason to think its an imminent danger. But when people start saying things like 'the revolution will rise again' and talk about blood spilling for a righteous cause, I get a little worried.

EDIT: I edited my post to reflect my views a little more clearly.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 05:12:58 PM by IndeedProceed »

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #201 on: January 20, 2013, 05:19:49 PM »

Offline jdz101

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Since the port arthur massacre in 1996 and the new extremely strict firearm and weapon laws were introduced, australia has had no mass killings of any kind.

The overall homicide rate with firearms apparently hasn't been impacted, though.

104 people were killed over 18 years in Australia due to mass shootings.  The reforms cost at least $500 million, and restricted the rights of millions of citizens.  I think there's an argument that $500 million to save less than 6 lives per year isn't the best use of state resources.  Isn't there a more cost-effective means, whether through education or some other means, to save six lives per year?

Whilst I understand your point, I dont think you can put a price tag on saving people's lives. Our government spends a huge amount of money on discouraging smoking and skin cancer awareness aswell. (due to our climate) A heap of people still die from lung cancer and melanoma in our country, but if there is a way to help the situation as a governing body, you have the obligation to do so.

As far as gun regulations and violence go, was this not a reaction to a mass killing? Is the aim here to prevent mass killings or overall gun violence? If having harsh gun laws stops these killings from happening (or makes them far less frequent), is that not a great thing? If statistics show that violence overall stays the same would you not take the victory of at least stopping massacres?

As far as the cost goes I'm sure the US government will continue to print money for quantitative easing purposes therefore a billion here or there to restrict firearms surely wouldn't put a hole in the pocket.




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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #202 on: January 20, 2013, 05:24:30 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Since the port arthur massacre in 1996 and the new extremely strict firearm and weapon laws were introduced, australia has had no mass killings of any kind.

The overall homicide rate with firearms apparently hasn't been impacted, though.

104 people were killed over 18 years in Australia due to mass shootings.  The reforms cost at least $500 million, and restricted the rights of millions of citizens.  I think there's an argument that $500 million to save less than 6 lives per year isn't the best use of state resources.  Isn't there a more cost-effective means, whether through education or some other means, to save six lives per year?

Whilst I understand your point, I dont think you can put a price tag on saving people's lives. Our government spends a huge amount of money on discouraging smoking and skin cancer awareness aswell. (due to our climate) A heap of people still die from lung cancer and melanoma in our country, but if there is a way to help the situation as a governing body, you have the obligation to do so.

As far as gun regulations and violence go, was this not a reaction to a mass killing? Is the aim here to prevent mass killings or overall gun violence? If having harsh gun laws stops these killings from happening (or makes them far less frequent), is that not a great thing? If statistics show that violence overall stays the same would you not take the victory of at least stopping massacres?

As far as the cost goes I'm sure the US government will continue to print money for quantitative easing purposes therefore a billion here or there to restrict firearms surely wouldn't put a hole in the pocket.

Well, people like to say things like "I dont think you can put a price tag on saving people's lives", but I don't think anybody in a position of power actually thinks that way (and rightfully so).  I mean, heck, our soldiers go without body army due to budgetary reasons; spending billions of dollars on policies that don't save any lives (at best, six lives per year) just doesn't seem like good policy.

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #203 on: January 20, 2013, 05:44:42 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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Canada has guns but no crime of this sort.   The government and the guns are not the problem it's our people and culture.

Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #204 on: January 20, 2013, 05:57:04 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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Canada has guns but no crime of this sort.   The government and the guns are not the problem it's our people and culture.

I was in Ottawa like 6 years ago and my friend got headbutted because he skipped to the front of a food truck line after the bars closed. Explain that, Dudley Doright!

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #205 on: January 20, 2013, 06:01:00 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Canada has guns but no crime of this sort.   The government and the guns are not the problem it's our people and culture.

I was in Ottawa like 6 years ago and my friend got headbutted because he skipped to the front of a food truck line after the bars closed. Explain that, Dudley Doright!

Sometimes, violence is justified.

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #206 on: January 20, 2013, 07:12:42 PM »

Offline jdz101

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Since the port arthur massacre in 1996 and the new extremely strict firearm and weapon laws were introduced, australia has had no mass killings of any kind.

The overall homicide rate with firearms apparently hasn't been impacted, though.

104 people were killed over 18 years in Australia due to mass shootings.  The reforms cost at least $500 million, and restricted the rights of millions of citizens.  I think there's an argument that $500 million to save less than 6 lives per year isn't the best use of state resources.  Isn't there a more cost-effective means, whether through education or some other means, to save six lives per year?

Whilst I understand your point, I dont think you can put a price tag on saving people's lives. Our government spends a huge amount of money on discouraging smoking and skin cancer awareness aswell. (due to our climate) A heap of people still die from lung cancer and melanoma in our country, but if there is a way to help the situation as a governing body, you have the obligation to do so.

As far as gun regulations and violence go, was this not a reaction to a mass killing? Is the aim here to prevent mass killings or overall gun violence? If having harsh gun laws stops these killings from happening (or makes them far less frequent), is that not a great thing? If statistics show that violence overall stays the same would you not take the victory of at least stopping massacres?

As far as the cost goes I'm sure the US government will continue to print money for quantitative easing purposes therefore a billion here or there to restrict firearms surely wouldn't put a hole in the pocket.

Well, people like to say things like "I dont think you can put a price tag on saving people's lives", but I don't think anybody in a position of power actually thinks that way (and rightfully so).  I mean, heck, our soldiers go without body army due to budgetary reasons; spending billions of dollars on policies that don't save any lives (at best, six lives per year) just doesn't seem like good policy.

Assuming the impact is the same, and considering the populations of the two nations, your number of 6 balloons to about 100 in the US.

Mentally unstable teenagers thinking about shooting up their school don't consider the law of averages when they're getting out their semi-automatic either. They won't just kill 6, they'll kill 30.

That event then plants a seed for other mentally disturbed people and it snowballs from there into other atrocities. How many times do hear that these people are "inspired" by previous shootings or massacres before they commit their own.

The US QE policy prints hundreds of billions of dollars a year just to service it's debts, im not convinced that the cost outweighs the benefit here.


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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #207 on: January 20, 2013, 11:05:43 PM »

Offline LB3533

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Stop the bullying because each day that happens it adds fuel to the fire of "courage" for the mentally/emotionally unstable to do something about it.

I think teachers need to do a better job of policing the halls and the classrooms.

I think parents need to do a better job of raising children with higher character and no I do not necessarily suggest religion or god-like teachings.

I feel past generations had good evolved people with higher character, much more so than today.

I feel with the advancement of technology the principle of hard work has lost its muster.

Today we are a country filled with too much flash and forgotten fundamentals.

Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #208 on: January 20, 2013, 11:21:05 PM »

Offline IndeedProceed

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Stop the bullying because each day that happens it adds fuel to the fire of "courage" for the mentally/emotionally unstable to do something about it.

Love the idea, don't see how it's possible. Two biggest issues: 1) Ratio of teachers to students is getting smaller not bigger. When you leave kids unattended, they revert back to their default sociopathic tendencies. They wrote a book about it, called 'Lord of the Flies'. 2) Social media means kids never get disconnect from each other. Constant contact without someone remindjng them not to be terrible to each other=more opportunities for bullying.

Quote
I think teachers need to do a better job of policing the halls and the classrooms.
again, need more teachers to make this happen

Quote
I think parents need to do a better job of raising children with higher character and no I do not necessarily suggest religion or god-like teachings.

I feel past generations had good evolved people with higher character, much more so than today.

Parents always 'have to do a better job' according to the public. How do you think people talked about kids in the 20s? 'Those darn flappers and their jazz music...'

Quote
I feel with the advancement of technology the principle of hard work has lost its muster.
maybe. I have no idea how to address this. Or stop it, or how to know if it's true.

Quote
Today we are a country filled with too much flash and forgotten fundamentals.

Again, who knows? The whole 'kids today..' criticism is as old as time. Did we peak in the 1950's? Depends on who you're talking about. It was a pretty awesome time to be a white male. Every generation has its worts.

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Re: US Constitution / Gun Law Talk (Merged Threads)
« Reply #209 on: January 21, 2013, 12:13:21 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Stop the bullying because each day that happens it adds fuel to the fire of "courage" for the mentally/emotionally unstable to do something about it.

Love the idea, don't see how it's possible. Two biggest issues: 1) Ratio of teachers to students is getting smaller not bigger. When you leave kids unattended, they revert back to their default sociopathic tendencies. They wrote a book about it, called 'Lord of the Flies'. 2) Social media means kids never get disconnect from each other. Constant contact without someone remindjng them not to be terrible to each other=more opportunities for bullying.
Yeah but does bullying really lead to this.  I mean were the Aurora and Sandy Hook incidents related at all to some sort of bullying.  I know Columbine had bullying as an underlying theme and probably some others have, but I suspect a lot of sociopaths that would kill people, were not bullied.

Then there is also what is the line between bullying and normal child interaction.  That line is pretty darn hard to draw. 
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