Author Topic: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school  (Read 21196 times)

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #435 on: December 18, 2012, 04:34:21 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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And I'm not saying the woman is just another opportunist, or that she's being insincere or anything. The piece was probably conceived with the best of intentions, but on execution it hits all the wrong notes with me and comes off as overly self-indulgent, clumsily manipulative, and lacking actual insight into real parallels between the killers and her (abet, clearly emotionally disturbed) son.

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #436 on: December 18, 2012, 04:38:20 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Completely relevant to this entire discussion... I am Adam Lanza's mother, written by the mother of a 13 year old displaying all the symptoms of a future mass murderer.  I posted this earlier in the thread, but it was buried.  I guarantee there were signs depicting instability.  My best friend (a psychatrist) works with these people all the time (including his own mother).

I get that this is supposed to be a brave piece from a woman attempting to humanize one of the supporting characters in this tragedy that otherwise would've been just another element in the blame equation, but it felt self-indulgent and clumsily manipulative. In fact, I thought the gawker piece was in incredible poor taste, because she actually isn't Adam Lanza's mother. Or Dylan Kliebold's or any of the other young mass murderers out there.

And all those guys aren't the same guy. And all of this is a lot more nuanced than a terrified mom trying to draw a parallel between herself a suddenly popular yet unsympathetic figure. A terrified mom who was a freelance journalist and probably still doesn't make much money or have many lucrative opportunities.

And if every kid who has an incredibly rough teenage existence is treated like this lady treats her son, basically like he's completely untrustworthy and terrifies her when he's in a bad mood..sounds terrifying for the child. If they've already got a 'run to the car and lock the doors until I deal with Dr Jekyl here' policy, it seems like this lady has really, really screwed the pooch here, so maybe she is Adam Lanza's mom.

I thought the piece was terrible.

I'm somewhere in between.  I don't understand the hype this article is receiving, but I don't necessarily consider it terrible, either.  I'll drop my cynicism, and just chalk it up to a mom sharing her story.

I think a lot of us try to relate this stuff to our own lives somehow.  I know that for me, I've draw parallels between this lunatic's mom and a court case I was involved in recently.  There, a very wealthy mom was completely enabling her mentally-troubled son, who had attempted suicide (with his children downstairs) a couple of months ago.  The guy had a scary mental health makeup, and yet the mother was buying him a condo, a Mercedes, and was advocating for him to have custody of his young child.  Having seen that, my mind says "here's another mother doing all the wrong things".  At least in the "I am Lanza's mom" story, the woman was doing something.

But none of that is fair, because we're taking a glimpse into these people's lives, and are drawing unfair conclusions.  When things make no sense, that's what we do:  try to satisfy ourselves by searching for answers.


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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #437 on: December 18, 2012, 04:46:45 PM »

Offline Kiorrik

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Completely relevant to this entire discussion... I am Adam Lanza's mother, written by the mother of a 13 year old displaying all the symptoms of a future mass murderer.  I posted this earlier in the thread, but it was buried.  I guarantee there were signs depicting instability.  My best friend (a psychatrist) works with these people all the time (including his own mother).

I get that this is supposed to be a brave piece from a woman attempting to humanize one of the supporting characters in this tragedy that otherwise would've been just another element in the blame equation, but it felt self-indulgent and clumsily manipulative. In fact, I thought the gawker piece was in incredible poor taste, because she actually isn't Adam Lanza's mother. Or Dylan Kliebold's or any of the other young mass murderers out there.

And all those guys aren't the same guy. And all of this is a lot more nuanced than a terrified mom trying to draw a parallel between herself a suddenly popular yet unsympathetic figure. A terrified mom who was a freelance journalist and probably still doesn't make much money or have many lucrative opportunities.

And if every kid who has an incredibly rough teenage existence is treated like this lady treats her son, basically like he's completely untrustworthy and terrifies her when he's in a bad mood..sounds terrifying for the child. If they've already got a 'run to the car and lock the doors until I deal with Dr Jekyl here' policy, it seems like this lady has really, really screwed the pooch here, so maybe she is Adam Lanza's mom.

I thought the piece was terrible.

I'm somewhere in between.  I don't understand the hype this article is receiving, but I don't necessarily consider it terrible, either.  I'll drop my cynicism, and just chalk it up to a mom sharing her story.

I think a lot of us try to relate this stuff to our own lives somehow.  I know that for me, I've draw parallels between this lunatic's mom and a court case I was involved in recently.  There, a very wealthy mom was completely enabling her mentally-troubled son, who had attempted suicide (with his children downstairs) a couple of months ago.  The guy had a scary mental health makeup, and yet the mother was buying him a condo, a Mercedes, and was advocating for him to have custody of his young child.  Having seen that, my mind says "here's another mother doing all the wrong things".  At least in the "I am Lanza's mom" story, the woman was doing something.

But none of that is fair, because we're taking a glimpse into these people's lives, and are drawing unfair conclusions.  When things make no sense, that's what we do:  try to satisfy ourselves by searching for answers.
That's what it was for me: just a radically different way to look at the same story.

It's just more human, more normal, that way.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #438 on: December 18, 2012, 07:46:00 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I guess Rev. Sam Morris and James Dobson of Focus on the Family have joined some other Christian leaders as painting God as angry and vengeful and blaming homosexuality, same sex marriage and the subject that shall not be named for the reasons why Sandy Hook happened.

Wow!!
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #439 on: December 20, 2012, 12:01:43 AM »

Online barefacedmonk

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #440 on: December 20, 2012, 10:44:28 PM »

Offline Redz

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There is now a specific thread for Gun Law chat.  I'm going to try to break up some of what is in this thread and put it there.  Please continue any gun law related posts there from now on. - Thanks, Redz

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #441 on: December 20, 2012, 10:50:38 PM »

Offline Amonkey

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There is now a specific thread for Gun Law chat.  I'm going to try to break up some of what is in this thread and put it there.  Please continue any gun law related posts there from now on. - Thanks, Redz

That's too bad. I thought this forum was going at a pretty good direction from all things related to this event, not just gun violence but from mental illness and videogames, family values and everything in between. The reality is that this tragedy is not a gun control alone issue but a combination of the topics that we have talked about before. By making a gun control alone thread I think kind of oversimplifies what happened to only one issue that prevents us from talking about all the issues.
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #442 on: December 20, 2012, 10:52:29 PM »

Offline Redz

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There is now a specific thread for Gun Law chat.  I'm going to try to break up some of what is in this thread and put it there.  Please continue any gun law related posts there from now on. - Thanks, Redz

That's too bad. I thought this forum was going at a pretty good direction from all things related to this event, not just gun violence but from mental illness and videogames, family values and everything in between. The reality is that this tragedy is not a gun control alone issue but a combination of the topics that we have talked about before. By making a gun control alone thread I think kind of oversimplifies what happened to only one issue that prevents us from talking about all the issues.

...and we can continue that part of the discussion in the other thread.  There was a 2nd thread already going for that topic specifically.

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #443 on: December 21, 2012, 01:30:11 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Not speaking as just a mod supporting a mod, Redz did a good thing here.

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #444 on: December 21, 2012, 01:56:38 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I guess Rev. Sam Morris and James Dobson of Focus on the Family have joined some other Christian leaders as painting God as angry and vengeful and blaming homosexuality, same sex marriage and the subject that shall not be named for the reasons why Sandy Hook happened.

Wow!!

As someone who has stated they have "grown up in/taken their children to" Catholic church, why are you surprised by this?  I assume, even though you have stated you don't really belive in religion, you've probably read a decent amount of the Bible.

Nothing these men have said is inconsistent with the text.  Throughout the Bible, societies have been punished for pushing God to the side.  God has done this numerous times to His own people (Hebrews/Jews) even.  Moses was forced to walk the desert, and never saw the Promised Land, as punishment for actions not even his own.

It may not be too appetizing, but, cold hard reality rarely is.  Direct reasons, no.  Reason by degradation of society as a whole, yes.  Man without God is left to his own devices.  A good outcome cannot be expected.  God does not protect those who shun Him.

It's perfectly ok to feel empathy for the victims and their families, yet understand that there is an underlying reason why things are allowed to happen.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #445 on: December 21, 2012, 02:24:44 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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KG's Knee, I understand what you're saying, and I get that it's no born from malice or some kind of feeling of righteous satisfaction.

But embracing a reasoning like you say is hard for me personally, and I imagine the same could be said for many others. To me your opinion here is cherry picking to say the least, and that's without the moral outrage. Pointing to this atrocity as some sort of logical line from so-called 'rejection' of God is akin to hubris on high. It is the logic used by people like the Westboro Baptist church when they protest outside of military funerals (and attempted to do so at the funerals of the children slain here). It strikes me as selective, and self-serving.

According to the texts, has such a thing occurred before? Surely it has, to the children of Egypt for one, to the inhabitants of sodom and gammorah for another, and to the entire world in the story of Noah's arc.

But God is also merciful, and shows that at length in the New Testament. I am sure you're more well versed than I am in the scripture.

By no means am I telling you what to believe, I'm merely saying that going from the bible alone, it is not for man to say what god does or does not intend. And absent a prophet, I don't see why it is anything but hubris to assume the motivation or message behind this tragedy, the only thing that is stated for certain is that it happened, so it is gods will.

This is the most diplomatic answer I can give, and I hope it accurately represents my outrage at the suppositions made by people like mike Huckabee.

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #446 on: December 21, 2012, 03:54:02 AM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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I guess Rev. Sam Morris and James Dobson of Focus on the Family have joined some other Christian leaders as painting God as angry and vengeful and blaming homosexuality, same sex marriage and the subject that shall not be named for the reasons why Sandy Hook happened.

Wow!!

As someone who has stated they have "grown up in/taken their children to" Catholic church, why are you surprised by this?  I assume, even though you have stated you don't really belive in religion, you've probably read a decent amount of the Bible.

Nothing these men have said is inconsistent with the text.  Throughout the Bible, societies have been punished for pushing God to the side.  God has done this numerous times to His own people (Hebrews/Jews) even.  Moses was forced to walk the desert, and never saw the Promised Land, as punishment for actions not even his own.

It may not be too appetizing, but, cold hard reality rarely is.  Direct reasons, no.  Reason by degradation of society as a whole, yes.  Man without God is left to his own devices.  A good outcome cannot be expected.  God does not protect those who shun Him.

It's perfectly ok to feel empathy for the victims and their families, yet understand that there is an underlying reason why things are allowed to happen.

So what about the places where God is the center? Have there not been any murders in churches? People have been burned to death and shot dead in churches... I never hear any of those lunatics saying God killed (some were kids) in those churches because of homosexuality. You don't find more teaching of God than in churches... I wonder what insane reason they think God had for those murders...

Then this same guy says something about you don't see metal detectors at homes where children are home-schooled... the ironic part, Lanza was home schooled and he killed his mother at home...

Then the argument "if everyone had guns"... the guns Lanza used were his mother's (I think she had 6), how did that work for her? Yea, let's go back to when most people carried guns in the "Wild West"... I'm sure people were never murdered then  ::). What about all the police who get murdered? Not only do they have multiple guns they have the training to use them and keep them easily accessible on their sides!

These people are just crazy.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:16:10 AM by ImShakHeIsShaq »
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #447 on: December 21, 2012, 04:48:08 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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There are other countries where homosexuality is legal and they can get married, yet God is not punishing them?   That ought to end all this nonsense right there.  Canada for instance has legal marriage of Gays and they were not punished.  Ditto for Martinique, no disasters or divine punishment. Israel herself has liberal rights for the Gay yet most of their punishment was prior to their founding.  Germany, Switzerland both prosperous today and no shooting have gay marriage.


We all concede that these children Lanzo killed were innocent victims, no?   Then what about the children killed the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah?   Were they baddies?  What about the kids killed by the angel of death.  God protects, hmmm?  His treatment of his chosen people in World War two ought to prove that this protection is fickle at best not to mention their scattering in the Diaspora and constant persecution throughout history.   I have heard that they are punished for turning their back on Jesus.   But the problem with that is that the Israelites in the Bible were hardly protected.  The Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians all conquered them not to mention the Greeks and Romans.  So that protection is sketchy at best and in all probability non-existent.  How about all those protected martyrs put to death in the arena.  Even Jesus felt these " My God, why have thou forsaken me," on the cross.   How about the chosen land is a desert?

As an atheist, when I read the Bible, I found God to have multiple personalities.  In the New Testament he is more merciful (albeit sadistic - being all powerful yet sending a son down to sacrifice when you could have wished things to be fixed) father of Jesus.  In the Old Testament, he is cruel and the punisher of the wicked.  This is one of the reasons I am not a Christian I found God immoral.  He doesn't do this punishment in the New Testament save in revelation and that is stuff to come.  But I want no part of a God that commands people to kill their sons and kill their own son even he could rise him from the dead.

These men who make these comments like Huckabee, Sam Morris and James Dobson are idiots.   I could easily say that we are punished because we have rich men leading us in religion and the Bible states that rich do not easily get into heaven.  Thus we are punished because we are lead by evil men and some would nod and believe that.

People will believe what they believe.   I think religion does many good things for people.   It does great things with charity and gives hope to many people and provides sound grounds for morality.   But when people use religion to condemn others to promote their agenda,  I think it is they who are immoral.   It simply doesn't stand up to critical thinking. But thinking and believing is too different things and don't often mesh.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #448 on: December 25, 2012, 12:20:54 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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William Spengler should have not had access to a gun.  He had beat his grandmother ( who was 92) to death in 1980.  He was a convicted felon who should not have had a firearm.   Yet he got one and shot some firemen.  No one with a gun stopped this one either.

Our guns law are jacked.   They need revised.   It is too easy for the crazies and ex cons to get guns.   All this talk of guns protecting us is a myth at this point.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #449 on: December 25, 2012, 01:36:43 PM »

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The idea that you have to form your life around the words written in whatever book - and I'm really sorry (and I mean it) if I'm offending anyone and yeah, I probably am - is crazy to me. I feel like a really spiritual person but I don't believe in God. To me, every man knows in his heart if he's done right or wrong, he doesn't need religion for that. And why should Earth be a less beautiful place because we're here because of the Big Bang or chance or luck, call it what you will? Is it not beautiful enough in itself? "Something so complex could not have happened without some sort of creation." Why not? To me, it doesn't make this world a less interesting place to live in. Again, sorry if I offended anyone and strayed a bit too far OT. Peace.

 

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