Author Topic: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school  (Read 20923 times)

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #420 on: December 18, 2012, 02:48:47 PM »

Offline Chris

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
You see this is what kind of bothers me about throwing mental illness into the equation in these cases, especially in cases where the assailant doesn't come out alive.

Most people instantly say these people are mental ill. They have to be. But many of these cases show evidence of careful planning, complex planning, and much forethought. Just because a person is evil, or a coward when they kill themselves after committing such a crime, doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

I think there's an assumption there that society needs to stop making.

Mental illness is referring to their difference from the mental norm.  Its not a virus, or something that can be physically measured.  It is based on thoughts and behavior.

Unless you are suggesting that planning to kill 20 6 year olds is the mental norm for human beings, then that, in itself, is enough to diagnose him as frickin crazy.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #421 on: December 18, 2012, 02:50:33 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I have said many times early in the thread how angry and depressed I was over this.

There's a lot to be sad and angry about.

I'm angry -- perhaps unfairly, perhaps not -- at the killer's mother.  She knew her child was troubled, and yet she kept at least five firearms in their home.

I'm angry at the killer's father and brother -- again, maybe unfairly -- who seemed to have little to no relationship with their brother.

Obviously, I'm most angry at the killer, who was such a freaking coward, and targeted the innocent and helpless.  I can wrap my head around a revenge killing.  There's nothing that can explain cold-blooded murder of children.

Mostly, though, I'm profoundly saddened.  I try not to read too many of the personal stories, because I have a tough time dealing with them.  This morning, I read a story about one of the victims.  That morning, he woke up and played hacky-sack with his mother (he won, 10-8), and then learned how to play Jingle Bells with his father.  Shortly thereafter, his body was destroyed by multiple bullets fired into him at close range.  I cried reading that, and I'm not remotely ashamed to admit it.  It's tragic, and there are 25 other stories just like it.

And lastly, I'm scared for my daughter.  The thought of her growing up in a society that has lost its way scares me.  Gun control is something that needs to be addressed, but I worry that it won't matter with our collective morality crumbling.  Every day, courtesy and respect seem to erode further.  I'm scared that that erosion can't be stopped.


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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #422 on: December 18, 2012, 02:52:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
It was more than that.  He tried to buy a gun a few days before, but couldn't so he just used his mother's guns.  I find it incredibly difficult to believe he wouldn't have been found legally sane, though he is clearly a nut job (I mean who else would open fire in an elementary school, but a nut job).
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #423 on: December 18, 2012, 02:55:18 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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I have said many times early in the thread how angry and depressed I was over this.

There's a lot to be sad and angry about.

I'm angry -- perhaps unfairly, perhaps not -- at the killer's mother.  She knew her child was troubled, and yet she kept at least five firearms in their home.

I'm angry at the killer's father and brother -- again, maybe unfairly -- who seemed to have little to no relationship with their brother.

Obviously, I'm most angry at the killer, who was such a freaking coward, and targeted the innocent and helpless.  I can wrap my head around a revenge killing.  There's nothing that can explain cold-blooded murder of children.

Mostly, though, I'm profoundly saddened.  I try not to read too many of the personal stories, because I have a tough time dealing with them.  This morning, I read a story about one of the victims.  That morning, he woke up and played hacky-sack with his mother (he won, 10-8), and then learned how to play Jingle Bells with his father.  Shortly thereafter, his body was destroyed by multiple bullets fired into him at close range.  I cried reading that, and I'm not remotely ashamed to admit it.  It's tragic, and there are 25 other stories just like it.

And lastly, I'm scared for my daughter.  The thought of her growing up in a society that has lost its way scares me.  Gun control is something that needs to be addressed, but I worry that it won't matter with our collective morality crumbling.  Every day, courtesy and respect seem to erode further.   I'm scared that that erosion can't be stopped.

Yup, commute on the T into the city any day of the week and you will see it.  My girlfriend got punched in the back two weeks ago by somebody trying to pack onto a train who felt that she had more room.  Nobody on the train said anything and the T police didnt seem interested in persuing it. 
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #424 on: December 18, 2012, 02:57:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
You see this is what kind of bothers me about throwing mental illness into the equation in these cases, especially in cases where the assailant doesn't come out alive.

Most people instantly say these people are mental ill. They have to be. But many of these cases show evidence of careful planning, complex planning, and much forethought. Just because a person is evil, or a coward when they kill themselves after committing such a crime, doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

I think there's an assumption there that society needs to stop making.

Its just that people look for explanations of things that are beyond explanation.  People need to know that a normal person couldnt do what Lanza did.  However in the process they are throwing a group of people under the bus just so they can have a type of scapegoat.
I agree.

People need to realize that some people are just evil, nasty and no good.

Also, some people are just apathetic to killing. There are soldiers that go to war and are never effected by the atrocities of war because of nothing more than apathy to the process of killing. Doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

For instance, look at farmers and hunters. They can kill animals quite easily whereas many people could never do such a thing. The attack of killing doesn't effect them. Doesn't make them mentally ill. It doesn't mean those that couldn't do it are any more emotionally or mentally weaker than the hunters and farmers. It just makes them effected by the act of killing.

Not every mass murderer is a sociopath or psychopath. Some are just bad, bad people.
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #425 on: December 18, 2012, 02:57:50 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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I have said many times early in the thread how angry and depressed I was over this.

There's a lot to be sad and angry about.

I'm angry -- perhaps unfairly, perhaps not -- at the killer's mother.  She knew her child was troubled, and yet she kept at least five firearms in their home.

I'm angry at the killer's father and brother -- again, maybe unfairly -- who seemed to have little to no relationship with their brother.

Obviously, I'm most angry at the killer, who was such a freaking coward, and targeted the innocent and helpless.  I can wrap my head around a revenge killing.  There's nothing that can explain cold-blooded murder of children.

Mostly, though, I'm profoundly saddened.  I try not to read too many of the personal stories, because I have a tough time dealing with them.  This morning, I read a story about one of the victims.  That morning, he woke up and played hacky-sack with his mother (he won, 10-8), and then learned how to play Jingle Bells with his father.  Shortly thereafter, his body was destroyed by multiple bullets fired into him at close range.  I cried reading that, and I'm not remotely ashamed to admit it.  It's tragic, and there are 25 other stories just like it.

And lastly, I'm scared for my daughter.  The thought of her growing up in a society that has lost its way scares me.  Gun control is something that needs to be addressed, but I worry that it won't matter with our collective morality crumbling.  Every day, courtesy and respect seem to erode further.  I'm scared that that erosion can't be stopped.

I've avoided reading those stories as  well. My son is in 4k and the thought of him and the fear he would have if something like this were to happen to him brings tears to my eyes. Knowing that the parents of these kids will probably have those thoughts with them forever is so sad.

I don't know how a person can go on after going through something like this.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #426 on: December 18, 2012, 03:05:21 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
You see this is what kind of bothers me about throwing mental illness into the equation in these cases, especially in cases where the assailant doesn't come out alive.

Most people instantly say these people are mental ill. They have to be. But many of these cases show evidence of careful planning, complex planning, and much forethought. Just because a person is evil, or a coward when they kill themselves after committing such a crime, doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

I think there's an assumption there that society needs to stop making.

Mental illness is referring to their difference from the mental norm.  Its not a virus, or something that can be physically measured.  It is based on thoughts and behavior.

Unless you are suggesting that planning to kill 20 6 year olds is the mental norm for human beings, then that, in itself, is enough to diagnose him as frickin crazy.
You see Chris, that's just it. Different doesn't mean ill.

Not being nornal doesn't mean ill.

When so many have come forward saying that this issue has to be addressed by providing better mental health coverage for people and trying to do a better job at identifying these signs of mental illness ahead of time I think they are fooling themselves.

Some people are just evil and prone to violence. I don't think that's an illness. I think its just a different,  a not normal thing that some people are. And I think it is very difficult to identify.
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #427 on: December 18, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Somebody must have gone to the DSM IV and found that apathy to killing isn't a mental illness after all.
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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #428 on: December 18, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
You see this is what kind of bothers me about throwing mental illness into the equation in these cases, especially in cases where the assailant doesn't come out alive.

Most people instantly say these people are mental ill. They have to be. But many of these cases show evidence of careful planning, complex planning, and much forethought. Just because a person is evil, or a coward when they kill themselves after committing such a crime, doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

I think there's an assumption there that society needs to stop making.

Mental illness is referring to their difference from the mental norm.  Its not a virus, or something that can be physically measured.  It is based on thoughts and behavior.

Unless you are suggesting that planning to kill 20 6 year olds is the mental norm for human beings, then that, in itself, is enough to diagnose him as frickin crazy.
You see Chris, that's just it. Different doesn't mean ill.

Not being nornal doesn't mean ill.

When so many have come forward saying that this issue has to be addressed by providing better mental health coverage for people and trying to do a better job at identifying these signs of mental illness ahead of time I think they are fooling themselves.

Some people are just evil and prone to violence. I don't think that's an illness. I think its just a different,  a not normal thing that some people are. And I think it is very difficult to identify.

It's an interesting topic.  There's all kinds of grey area between "normal" and "insane".  It would be interesting to look at what, if any, of that grey area makes somebody more prone to violence.

I would guess that Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Intermittent Explosive Disorder, PTSD and Acute Stress Disorder make somebody more prone to violence.  Certainly, more prone to impulsive physical violence.  Pre-meditated, though?  I'm not sure.

What about depression, bi-polar, Borderline Personality Disorder, etc.?  I have no idea.

One thing I'm clear on, though:  if I had a child with any of the above, I wouldn't have guns in my home.


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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #429 on: December 18, 2012, 03:13:54 PM »

Offline Chris

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
You see this is what kind of bothers me about throwing mental illness into the equation in these cases, especially in cases where the assailant doesn't come out alive.

Most people instantly say these people are mental ill. They have to be. But many of these cases show evidence of careful planning, complex planning, and much forethought. Just because a person is evil, or a coward when they kill themselves after committing such a crime, doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

I think there's an assumption there that society needs to stop making.

Mental illness is referring to their difference from the mental norm.  Its not a virus, or something that can be physically measured.  It is based on thoughts and behavior.

Unless you are suggesting that planning to kill 20 6 year olds is the mental norm for human beings, then that, in itself, is enough to diagnose him as frickin crazy.
You see Chris, that's just it. Different doesn't mean ill.

Not being nornal doesn't mean ill.

When so many have come forward saying that this issue has to be addressed by providing better mental health coverage for people and trying to do a better job at identifying these signs of mental illness ahead of time I think they are fooling themselves.

Some people are just evil and prone to violence. I don't think that's an illness. I think its just a different,  a not normal thing that some people are. And I think it is very difficult to identify.

In mental health, different DOES mean ill.  Until recently, being gay was litterally considered a mental illness. 

Mental illness is based on a bell curve.  If your off the edge of it, your mentally ill.  That's how it works.
 

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #430 on: December 18, 2012, 03:15:17 PM »

Offline Chelm

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Just trying to think of the strongest wildlife threat to mans safety.

Probably a pack of wolves, although they're more of a threat to livestock generally.

I'd bet, without checking any statistics, that more people die from dogbites each year than Americans have died from attacks by wolves in the last 10.

The same is true of bears.  When Rondo said "biggest threat to man's safety", I assume he meant in terms of capacity of danger, not volume.  Otherwise, the answer would probably be "bees".
I'd vote for mosquitos, actually.  At least worldwide.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #431 on: December 18, 2012, 03:18:58 PM »

Offline Chris

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This lunatic apparently destroyed his computers before the murders, suggesting that this was pre-meditated and he was trying to cover his tracks.

Under legal criteria, whatever mental defects this monster had, he would have been most likely adjudicated to be sane.
You see this is what kind of bothers me about throwing mental illness into the equation in these cases, especially in cases where the assailant doesn't come out alive.

Most people instantly say these people are mental ill. They have to be. But many of these cases show evidence of careful planning, complex planning, and much forethought. Just because a person is evil, or a coward when they kill themselves after committing such a crime, doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

I think there's an assumption there that society needs to stop making.

Mental illness is referring to their difference from the mental norm.  Its not a virus, or something that can be physically measured.  It is based on thoughts and behavior.

Unless you are suggesting that planning to kill 20 6 year olds is the mental norm for human beings, then that, in itself, is enough to diagnose him as frickin crazy.
You see Chris, that's just it. Different doesn't mean ill.

Not being nornal doesn't mean ill.

When so many have come forward saying that this issue has to be addressed by providing better mental health coverage for people and trying to do a better job at identifying these signs of mental illness ahead of time I think they are fooling themselves.

Some people are just evil and prone to violence. I don't think that's an illness. I think its just a different,  a not normal thing that some people are. And I think it is very difficult to identify.

In mental health, different DOES mean ill.  Until recently, being gay was litterally considered a mental illness. 

Mental illness is based on a bell curve.  If your off the edge of it, your mentally ill.  That's how it works.

From the DSM:

"A clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an
individual and that is associated with present distress (i.e., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e.,
an impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased
risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. The syndrome or pattern
must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event. It must
currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction
in the individual. "

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #432 on: December 18, 2012, 03:30:37 PM »

Offline Chelm

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Completely relevant to this entire discussion... I am Adam Lanza's mother, written by the mother of a 13 year old displaying all the symptoms of a future mass murderer.  I posted this earlier in the thread, but it was buried.  I guarantee there were signs depicting instability.  My best friend (a psychatrist) works with these people all the time (including his own mother).

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #433 on: December 18, 2012, 04:21:50 PM »

Offline Kiorrik

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Completely relevant to this entire discussion... I am Adam Lanza's mother, written by the mother of a 13 year old displaying all the symptoms of a future mass murderer.  I posted this earlier in the thread, but it was buried.  I guarantee there were signs depicting instability.  My best friend (a psychatrist) works with these people all the time (including his own mother).
Yeah, I read this the other day on hackernews.

Impressive piece.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #434 on: December 18, 2012, 04:25:37 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Completely relevant to this entire discussion... I am Adam Lanza's mother, written by the mother of a 13 year old displaying all the symptoms of a future mass murderer.  I posted this earlier in the thread, but it was buried.  I guarantee there were signs depicting instability.  My best friend (a psychatrist) works with these people all the time (including his own mother).

I get that this is supposed to be a brave piece from a woman attempting to humanize one of the supporting characters in this tragedy that otherwise would've been just another element in the blame equation, but it felt self-indulgent and clumsily manipulative. In fact, I thought the gawker piece was in incredible poor taste, because she actually isn't Adam Lanza's mother. Or Dylan Kliebold's or any of the other young mass murderers out there.

And all those guys aren't the same guy. And all of this is a lot more nuanced than a terrified mom trying to draw a parallel between herself a suddenly popular yet unsympathetic figure. A terrified mom who was a freelance journalist and probably still doesn't make much money or have many lucrative opportunities.

And if every kid who has an incredibly rough teenage existence is treated like this lady treats her son, basically like he's completely untrustworthy and terrifies her when he's in a bad mood..sounds terrifying for the child. If they've already got a 'run to the car and lock the doors until I deal with Dr Jekyl here' policy, it seems like this lady has really, really screwed the pooch here, so maybe she is Adam Lanza's mom.

I thought the piece was terrible.

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