Author Topic: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school  (Read 19528 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Celtics4ever

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6659
  • Tommy Points: 410
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #240 on: December 16, 2012, 11:54:28 AM »
Quote
Im with you redz, this is what i tried to elude to before.  If people think the majority of gun owners will peacefully surrender their guns I think they have another thing coming. 

[edit] they would not last 10 seconds if the government wanted them.   The average gun owner can't protect himself from gas.   Guns make people think they are brave, the reality is the government could use tanks which a gun is useless against.   It won't happen but Joe Blow ain't going to be GI Joe.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:14:12 PM by IndeedProceed »

Offline IndeedProceed

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36585
  • Tommy Points: 1771
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #241 on: December 16, 2012, 12:13:32 PM »
I was about to enter into the fray, but before posting my opinion on some of the arguements here, I realized something:

This thread is no longer about the 20 dead kids, or 7 dead adults, its about shouting what you've believed about gun control for the past decade, the same stuff you've said in other threads, and maybe after other tragedies.

That's kind of depressing.

But this kind of violence isn't actually representative of all gun violence in the US. Premeditated mass murder in a single event using firearms (Aurora, Newtown, etc..) is for me much more closely linked to a suicide bomber walking onto a packed bus than it is to a man murdering his wife because he was emotionally unstable and didn't know what else to do (or any other of the 11k firearm deaths we had last year).

If we didn't have guns (pragmatically, a laughable scenario), any guns, the odds of this kid being able to pull off Newtown drop dramatically. Yes, 'the biggest school killing in US history was with a bomb', but that's kind of irrelevant in a practical sense. Making bombs is hard. Pulling a trigger isn't. And a lot more people know how to pull a trigger well than know how to make a viable explosive device. Without guns, Newtown probably doesn't happen, and even if the school gets attacks, the mortality rate likely drops to one or two children, with other non-fatal injuries.

Meanwhile 'gun violence' is a whole other beast. ~11,000 people were murdered by firearms last year (roughly 7 out of 10 murders). If you figure that 100 people each year are killed by mass shootings (and if I'm not mistaken, that's a higher number than it warrants), you're talking about less than 1% of all firearm homicides, and about half of one percent of all homicides total.

The issues of these mass shootings go beyond the gun control debate. Saying stricter gun control would decrease he odds of these shootings succeeding is probably true, but you're affecting an entire nation's lifestyle for roughly 100 people (or, to be more honest, kids) a year, when you should be making policy that would benefit the 16,799 people killed later year, or, failing that, the 11,000 people killed by firearms last year.

Newtown shouldn't be at the center of the gun debate. It is a very small volume of the actual deaths people are trying to prevent, and if you're trying to stop mass shootings, it would be better to study all the security measures that could be taken to do so, rather than a knee-jerk response.

Keep in mind, I'm pro-gun control. I just don't think this what this thread has turned into is really relevant to the Newtown shooting anymore, and it kind of bummed me out.

Because the real cost of things like Newtown (apologies to the friends and family members of those murdered, I'm not referring to you here, the cost to you is one I literally cannot imagine, and it can't and shouldn't be marginalized) or Aurora aren't in statistics, they're emotional. It is a spiritual kick to the stomach to most people, and much more to people who are more sympathetic to such things.

And it's like that because Newtown is so obviously evil. It is wrong on a spiritual level, one that is without grey areas or nuance. Even Scarface knew you don't kill kids. It is engrained in our culture, our community, and in our very DNA. Adam Lanza (I've avoided using his name because that's what the sicko would want) turned his back on one of the very tenets of humanity.

And I don't know how you legislate that.


Sorry for the rambling post. Lot of stuff packed in there, and I probably didn't make it overly concise or efficient.

DKC Portland Trailblazers Team Card
Questions about the DKC? Ask here: LINK
Quote from: IndeedProceed
(insert funny/insightful/inside joke from me here at some point)

Offline The4Time2Doctor0

  • Courtney Lee
  • Posts: 153
  • Tommy Points: 18
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #242 on: December 16, 2012, 12:21:13 PM »
do you people really believe any of the crap any of you are spewing? the military forcefully taking guns from citizens? you're living in a fantasy world. I don't know where you live, but where I live its dangerous. gun laws will never keep scum bag criminals from not having guns. all it will do is stop law abiding citizens like myself from having guns. this tragedy did not happen because of the availibility of guns. it happened because this worthless nutcase had guns available to him. if someone threatens my love ones. I will kill them. no one has access to my gun except me. personal responsibility and accountibility is what this country needs. if your kid is a nut case get him help. if the courts recognize a person being dangerous lock them so far away they never see the light of the sun again. if teachers or guidence counselors identify violent tendencies, flag this kid; sound all of the warning bells. some people are throw aways. accept and realize this sad, but true fact. I wish there were no guns just as I wish there was no mental illness. there is. stop this perfect  world bull.

Offline Redz

  • Punner
  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26737
  • Tommy Points: 2131
  • Yup
    • The Caped Cod
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #243 on: December 16, 2012, 12:26:39 PM »
I was about to enter into the fray, but before posting my opinion on some of the arguements here, I realized something:

This thread is no longer about the 20 dead kids, or 7 dead adults, its about shouting what you've believed about gun control for the past decade, the same stuff you've said in other threads, and maybe after other tragedies.

That's kind of depressing.

But this kind of violence isn't actually representative of all gun violence in the US. Premeditated mass murder in a single event using firearms (Aurora, Newtown, etc..) is for me much more closely linked to a suicide bomber walking onto a packed bus than it is to a man murdering his wife because he was emotionally unstable and didn't know what else to do (or any other of the 11k firearm deaths we had last year).

If we didn't have guns (pragmatically, a laughable scenario), any guns, the odds of this kid being able to pull off Newtown drop dramatically. Yes, 'the biggest school killing in US history was with a bomb', but that's kind of irrelevant in a practical sense. Making bombs is hard. Pulling a trigger isn't. And a lot more people know how to pull a trigger well than know how to make a viable explosive device. Without guns, Newtown probably doesn't happen, and even if the school gets attacks, the mortality rate likely drops to one or two children, with other non-fatal injuries.

Meanwhile 'gun violence' is a whole other beast. ~11,000 people were murdered by firearms last year (roughly 7 out of 10 murders). If you figure that 100 people each year are killed by mass shootings (and if I'm not mistaken, that's a higher number than it warrants), you're talking about less than 1% of all firearm homicides, and about half of one percent of all homicides total.

The issues of these mass shootings go beyond the gun control debate. Saying stricter gun control would decrease he odds of these shootings succeeding is probably true, but you're affecting an entire nation's lifestyle for roughly 100 people (or, to be more honest, kids) a year, when you should be making policy that would benefit the 16,799 people killed later year, or, failing that, the 11,000 people killed by firearms last year.

Newtown shouldn't be at the center of the gun debate. It is a very small volume of the actual deaths people are trying to prevent, and if you're trying to stop mass shootings, it would be better to study all the security measures that could be taken to do so, rather than a knee-jerk response.

Keep in mind, I'm pro-gun control. I just don't think this what this thread has turned into is really relevant to the Newtown shooting anymore, and it kind of bummed me out.

Because the real cost of things like Newtown (apologies to the friends and family members of those murdered, I'm not referring to you here, the cost to you is one I literally cannot imagine, and it can't and shouldn't be marginalized) or Aurora aren't in statistics, they're emotional. It is a spiritual kick to the stomach to most people, and much more to people who are more sympathetic to such things.

And it's like that because Newtown is so obviously evil. It is wrong on a spiritual level, one that is without grey areas or nuance. Even Scarface knew you don't kill kids. It is engrained in our culture, our community, and in our very DNA. Adam Lanza (I've avoided using his name because that's what the sicko would want) turned his back on one of the very tenets of humanity.

And I don't know how you legislate that.



Sorry for the rambling post. Lot of stuff packed in there, and I probably didn't make it overly concise or efficient.

yup..you are correct

and yes, Nick & Celtics4Ever I guess the government could form a Gestapo and weed out all of the gun owners by killing them if they wanted to. I just don't think that would be very much in keeping with the kind of atmosphere I'd like to live in.

GOCELTS

Offline Redz

  • Punner
  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26737
  • Tommy Points: 2131
  • Yup
    • The Caped Cod
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #244 on: December 16, 2012, 12:30:49 PM »
personal responsibility and accountibility is what this country needs. if your kid is a nut case get him help. if the courts recognize a person being dangerous lock them so far away they never see the light of the sun again. if teachers or guidence counselors identify violent tendencies, flag this kid; sound all of the warning bells. some people are throw aways. accept and realize this sad, but true fact. I wish there were no guns just as I wish there was no mental illness. there is. stop this perfect  world bull.

Agreed mostly.  We just need to get a heck of a lot better at how we detect and handle things.

This link has been circulating on Facebook for what it's worth:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

GOCELTS

Offline The4Time2Doctor0

  • Courtney Lee
  • Posts: 153
  • Tommy Points: 18
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #245 on: December 16, 2012, 12:51:22 PM »
thanks for the link redz. my "throw away" statement seems overly harsh, esp. after reading that. there are no easy answers, but I hope as a country we can allow what has happened to help us to find a good solution. I hope this doesn't become forgotten in the coming weeks as these events seem to in time. apathy is too strong in myself and most of us. feeling that nothing will change and never trying to change anything can be very dangerous. I tend to not even read anything on this forum that is not basketball related but I am greatful for a place to, I'm not even sure what I'm doing, maybe just organizing my thoughts and realize what I'm actually feeling about what has happened and maybe my place in the world.

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22209
  • Tommy Points: -29458
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #246 on: December 16, 2012, 12:53:59 PM »
I'm fine with barring people with mental illness from possessing guns.

Would that mean that we bar anybody with an Axis I or Axis II diagnosis from owning a gun?  Bi-polar?  ADHD?  Anxiety?  Depression?

And are we in favor of opening up those databases to the government?  To the police?  Do we mandate that psychiatrists, psychologists, clinicians, therapists and social workers report these diagnoses?

It's a tough question.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22209
  • Tommy Points: -29458
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #247 on: December 16, 2012, 12:54:52 PM »
On another note, they were playing "pumped up kicks" yesterday at the mall.  Seemed fairly inappropriate, even though I'm sure nobody was thinking about it.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Offline Redz

  • Punner
  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26737
  • Tommy Points: 2131
  • Yup
    • The Caped Cod
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #248 on: December 16, 2012, 01:05:17 PM »
thanks for the link redz. my "throw away" statement seems overly harsh, esp. after reading that. there are no easy answers, but I hope as a country we can allow what has happened to help us to find a good solution. I hope this doesn't become forgotten in the coming weeks as these events seem to in time. apathy is too strong in myself and most of us. feeling that nothing will change and never trying to change anything can be very dangerous. I tend to not even read anything on this forum that is not basketball related but I am greatful for a place to, I'm not even sure what I'm doing, maybe just organizing my thoughts and realize what I'm actually feeling about what has happened and maybe my place in the world.

It's a lot to absorb.  And processing it in a place like this is a good outlet.  The attractive part of apathy is that many of society's ills are simply too big to fathom.

I can say that stories like the link I sent bring home the "micro" part of the story.

As a special needs teacher in a residential school I work with many of the diagnoses Roy listed.  These kids are not always safe to themselves or others, but they are all very worthy of caring for.  It's a lot of collaborative effort, but it's worth it. 

GOCELTS

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18117
  • Tommy Points: 612
  • What a Pub Should Be
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #249 on: December 16, 2012, 01:06:58 PM »
On another note, they were playing "pumped up kicks" yesterday at the mall.  Seemed fairly inappropriate, even though I'm sure nobody was thinking about it.

I'm guessing 90% of people who listen to that song have no clue about the underlying lyrics and just like the beat.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Online Celtics18

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7534
  • Tommy Points: 782
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #250 on: December 16, 2012, 01:11:54 PM »
I was about to enter into the fray, but before posting my opinion on some of the arguements here, I realized something:

This thread is no longer about the 20 dead kids, or 7 dead adults, its about shouting what you've believed about gun control for the past decade, the same stuff you've said in other threads, and maybe after other tragedies.

That's kind of depressing.

But this kind of violence isn't actually representative of all gun violence in the US. Premeditated mass murder in a single event using firearms (Aurora, Newtown, etc..) is for me much more closely linked to a suicide bomber walking onto a packed bus than it is to a man murdering his wife because he was emotionally unstable and didn't know what else to do (or any other of the 11k firearm deaths we had last year).

If we didn't have guns (pragmatically, a laughable scenario), any guns, the odds of this kid being able to pull off Newtown drop dramatically. Yes, 'the biggest school killing in US history was with a bomb', but that's kind of irrelevant in a practical sense. Making bombs is hard. Pulling a trigger isn't. And a lot more people know how to pull a trigger well than know how to make a viable explosive device. Without guns, Newtown probably doesn't happen, and even if the school gets attacks, the mortality rate likely drops to one or two children, with other non-fatal injuries.

Meanwhile 'gun violence' is a whole other beast. ~11,000 people were murdered by firearms last year (roughly 7 out of 10 murders). If you figure that 100 people each year are killed by mass shootings (and if I'm not mistaken, that's a higher number than it warrants), you're talking about less than 1% of all firearm homicides, and about half of one percent of all homicides total.

The issues of these mass shootings go beyond the gun control debate. Saying stricter gun control would decrease he odds of these shootings succeeding is probably true, but you're affecting an entire nation's lifestyle for roughly 100 people (or, to be more honest, kids) a year, when you should be making policy that would benefit the 16,799 people killed later year, or, failing that, the 11,000 people killed by firearms last year.

Newtown shouldn't be at the center of the gun debate. It is a very small volume of the actual deaths people are trying to prevent, and if you're trying to stop mass shootings, it would be better to study all the security measures that could be taken to do so, rather than a knee-jerk response.

Keep in mind, I'm pro-gun control. I just don't think this what this thread has turned into is really relevant to the Newtown shooting anymore, and it kind of bummed me out.

Because the real cost of things like Newtown (apologies to the friends and family members of those murdered, I'm not referring to you here, the cost to you is one I literally cannot imagine, and it can't and shouldn't be marginalized) or Aurora aren't in statistics, they're emotional. It is a spiritual kick to the stomach to most people, and much more to people who are more sympathetic to such things.

And it's like that because Newtown is so obviously evil. It is wrong on a spiritual level, one that is without grey areas or nuance. Even Scarface knew you don't kill kids. It is engrained in our culture, our community, and in our very DNA. Adam Lanza (I've avoided using his name because that's what the sicko would want) turned his back on one of the very tenets of humanity.

And I don't know how you legislate that.


Sorry for the rambling post. Lot of stuff packed in there, and I probably didn't make it overly concise or efficient.

Great post.  Personally, I didn't mean to get involved in a gun control debate while discussing my feelings about this terrible tragedy with my Celtics Blog family. 

It just kind of happened. 

Peace
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Kendall Marshall/Dennis Schroeder/Marquis Teague/Ray McCallum
Evan Turner/Roger Mason Jr./Jason Richardson(injured)
Thaddeus Young/Victor Claver/Otto Porter
Spencer Hawes/Darrell Arthur/Erik Murphy
Timofey Mozgov/Lavoy Allen

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10848
  • Tommy Points: 2120
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #251 on: December 16, 2012, 01:23:34 PM »
For me, and just me - Mr. Huckabee's comments, although perceived as harsh - have a LOT of meaning to them.

Listening to that man speak over the years - he is, IMO - a compassionate gentleman. I know that some here took some umbrage to what he stated in reference to the shooting, but I cannot disagree with the man from a Faith perspective.

It's just "my" perspective, though....my two cents. I have no desire to discuss, breakdown, re-hash his comments or my personal thougths wrt my faith here, but again Mike Huckabee, to me - makes a lot of sense.

And as for the shooter? The confusing thing, from what I've read - is that he seemed like a normal person, from all accounts...I've seen reports that stated he was "quiet..remote.." but "I" am quiet, remote - until I get to know you. Even then, I'm just not a extroverted person. I've never been a "life of the party" kind of person. And even after being around guns for 20+ yrs in the service - I still have no desire to have one...for me, I trust Law Enforcement ONLY for that.

But the whole thing is just sad....doesn't make any sense. Probably never will. Horrible thing to happen any time of the year, much less THIS time.
CelticsBlog 2013 Historical Draft Seattle Supersonics: Coach: Jerry Sloan

C- Bill Walton/James "Buddha" Edwards/Danny Schayes/Caldwell Jones
PF-Buck Williams/Caldwell Jones/Danny Schayes
SF-Adrian Dantley/Ricky Pierce/Greg Ballard
SG-Eddie Johnson/Ricky Pierce/Trent Tucker
PG-Maurice "Mo" Cheeks/Lionel Hollins

Offline LB3533

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3867
  • Tommy Points: 271
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #252 on: December 16, 2012, 01:36:31 PM »
A ban on guns should not be the answer.

Federal gun control should not be the answer.

The real true answer is to improve the quality, health and character of free people who live in a free society.


Offline IndeedProceed

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36585
  • Tommy Points: 1771
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #253 on: December 16, 2012, 01:41:41 PM »
On another note, they were playing "pumped up kicks" yesterday at the mall.  Seemed fairly inappropriate, even though I'm sure nobody was thinking about it.

ESPN told its talent to not use the word shooter in any of their commentary, and calling a basketball game without using phrases like 'lights out shooter' has got to be difficult.

http://deadspin.com/5968619/in-wake-of-school-massacre-espn-tells-staff-to-stop-tweeting-about-sports-until-sunday-refrain-from-using-the-word-shooter?tag=sandy-hook-shooting

They also bent over backwards to not call the Nevada offense scheme the name its become known since 2004, the 'Pistol offense'.

They did however use the word shotgun.

It is kind of a really tough line to walk, and for me that's a little overkill (and I literally thought just now, 'should I have said overkill'?), but erring on the side of caution here is almost certainly the best way to go.


DKC Portland Trailblazers Team Card
Questions about the DKC? Ask here: LINK
Quote from: IndeedProceed
(insert funny/insightful/inside joke from me here at some point)

Offline IndeedProceed

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36585
  • Tommy Points: 1771
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #254 on: December 16, 2012, 01:44:02 PM »
A ban on guns should not be the answer.

Federal gun control should not be the answer.

The real true answer is to improve the quality, health and character of free people who live in a free society.

I think this is true, but its also a very amorphous and abstract approach to solving anything. It is kind of like saying, 'Dealing with terrible genocidal dictators with overwhelming military force isn't the best way to save lives. The best way to save lives is to make sure we bring up kids the right way, so none of them become terrible dictators.'

EDIT: THat's a little more snarky than I intended, what I'm saying is that its totally true what you said, but at the same time, its also kind of impossible to pin down or define how to do it. I imagine that's why people point at guns here, because its there, and its familiar, and its something to blame besides a dead shooter who will never face justice from the people.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 01:50:45 PM by IndeedProceed »

DKC Portland Trailblazers Team Card
Questions about the DKC? Ask here: LINK
Quote from: IndeedProceed
(insert funny/insightful/inside joke from me here at some point)

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog