Author Topic: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school  (Read 21081 times)

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2012, 09:43:34 PM »

Offline ManUp

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Sad and Sickening.

Stuff like this is just a reminder of just how mad a world we live in.

My prayer's are with the families.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2012, 10:38:13 PM »

Offline Redz

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http://m.gawker.com/5968633/mike-huckabee-says-conn-shooting-happened-because-we-removed-god-from-our-schools

Mike Huckabee isn't a malicious man, and he's undoubtedly speaking from the heart here and isn't trying to offend anyone.

But for him to imply that if all the kids in the school were exposed to Christianity this wouldn't have happened, and that failing to teach Christianity in schools leads to a moral failing in students, and to use this tragedy as simple fodder for his myopic world view, it is extremely offensive.

And the funny thing? Mike Huckabee implies that since his word wasn't taught in this school, God didnt have an interest in stopping this tragedy. Like some sort of petty spiteful ex girlfriend.

I know Mike Huckabee had good intentions here and was trying to be sincere and honest, but to me at least, he came off way different.

Having watched the actual interview, I don't have a huge problem with his perspective.  I don't believe it, but I don't have a problem.

He was asked the question, "How could God let something like this happen".  His answer was essentially a reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, or any other Biblical city that turned its back on God.  When places remove God from their wall, God has oftentimes acted with vengeance.  He turned Sodom and Gomorrah into salt.  Heck, he flooded the entire Earth.

If you believe in a Judeo-Christian God, it's reasonable to think that God would allow this to happen (again, the question Huckabee was responding to.)  I don't think Huckabee was saying that the students themselves were morally at fault, but rather, that our society was.

I saw it too, he was talking about public schools needing religion classes where kids can learn about caring for each other and things like that. Who's to say what god is and how people celebrate him/her/it . Why can't we teach our kids about love, being a good neighbor and so on without needing to have classes devoted to specific religions.

How about classes devoted to being better human beings or group therapy classes in school where kids can get their feelings out .

If you want your kids to learn about a specific religion there are schools for that.

It's such a ridiculous statement to make IMO.

There actually are 2 things that I believe we should teach in schools that we generally do not teach (or teach well).  And I mean teach, not just provide cursory mention of.  I believe we should value teaching these 2 components as much as we value teaching most things (maybe not as high a value as reading, but pretty much as high as everything else):
1) Setting goals.  Kids are generally terrible at it and especially poor at it if they live in impulse or present-oriented families or community culture.  Future orientation is an important element to traditional success in America and it also has a strong connection to feeling in control over one's life.  Teaching children in schools to set and achieve goals is very difficult and requires teacher commitment and persistence. Most teachers give up on it as a curricular component. But goal-setting IS a teachable skill.  Many kids will be terrible at it and resistant to it at first and get better at it over time.  One key residual benefit to goal-setting as that it increases the likelihood of insight when it comes to actually experiencing real cosnequences to behavioral output -- children are able to see that when they haven't managed their thoughts-feelings-behavior well that it impacts the achievement of goals. 
2) Stress awareness and stress management. Different things stress different people differently.  What is stressful to you may not be stressful at all to me.  Kids CAN learn what stresses them, CAN increase awareness of the presence of stressors in the momenet, and CAN learn strategies to manage stress so that it does not keep them from achieving their goals.  Again, placing them much more in control of their lives. 

As far as Huckabee goes, I don't believe what he believes at all.  I neither encouraged nor discouraged my children to believe in god (I tried to be neutral though I do not believe in god). We did encourage (rather diligently) Judeo-Christian values.  My daughters are both non-believers in god and yet may be the 2 most moral and decent people I've ever known.

NG I read 2/3 of your post without checking to see who had written it and I knew it was you.  The two components you spoke of are very much a part of what we do to help kids work towards independence.

GOCELTS

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #137 on: December 14, 2012, 11:57:05 PM »

Offline dinome18

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There are two things we need to be aware of in the wake of tragedies like these. Taking care of our children (parenting) and being aware of our social culture. Bullying. What happens when our kids don't feel like they belong and are tormented because of it and find no solace at home.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2012, 12:35:41 AM »

Offline WeMadeIt17

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Such a sad day in our history. Sad thing is people on youtube trying to say that all of these shootings are set up by the government in order to take our guns away.. Simply nuts. I am so sadded by what people really think in this world. There are 20 children dead and all some folks think about is how could we spin this into something else. My prayers go to those who lost a child or family memeber today.



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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2012, 08:01:43 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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tragically sad.  i hugged my kid like never b4 yesterday when i got home.  this story really hit home, as my child is a first grader and in the same age range as the victims.


Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #140 on: December 15, 2012, 08:38:29 AM »

Offline chambers

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My lady works in mental health in Connecticut and has patients that go to this school.
It's just unbelievable.
 I was in Danbury recently walking around in the mall and it's just unreal to think that a sicko could walk into that school with all those weapons and just have his way.

Something has to be done about gun control in the USA.
I just don't know how many more people have to die from gun murder. I'm just hoping these poor babies lives weren't taken in vein and that their sacrifice leads to some realistic change.

The Huckabee thing was interesting.
We can argue about it being his honest opinion or political agenda but bringing religion or lack thereof into the discussion is weak to me. He's entitled to his opinion but there's plenty of evidence in history to suggest that religion produces just as many psychos if not more, than this coward perp.

I still can't believe that someone can get their hands on guns as easily as this, with all the ammo to kill 20 children and more adults.
Or someone can get the stockpile needed to walk into a Batman screening and wreak havoc there.

I just wonder how many more of these incidences have to occur before America seriously considers the need for such easy access to automatic weapons.

I'm looking at the United Kingdom and the 60 million people with 60 gun murders in the year.
The USA with 320 million people and almost 9000 gun murders.
Australia and other first world countries tell a similar story.
Surely it's the quickest, most effective solution. This psycho with even a single 9mm pistol is only getting 5-10 kids and the children have more of a chance of getting away. Same in the batman situation.
It's got to get harder to access these weapons.





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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #141 on: December 15, 2012, 08:43:10 AM »

Offline relja

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I don't live in the States, but I'm pretty sure banning guns would prevent tragedies like this.

The whole "we need to protect ourselves from intruders" argument is just an excuse for fat old republicans to shoot someone. Guns rarely do any good.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2012, 08:47:59 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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I don't live in the States, but I'm pretty sure banning guns would prevent tragedies like this.

The whole "we need to protect ourselves from intruders" argument is just an excuse for fat old republicans to shoot someone. Guns rarely do any good.

Shhhhhhhhhhhh, you're  going to blow our cover.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 09:06:30 AM by angryguy77 »

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #143 on: December 15, 2012, 09:16:28 AM »

Offline Brendan

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The federal gov't and state gov't have been so effective at Drug Control, that I'm sure they'll be just as effective at Gun Control. And of course just like how bad guys don't have access to illegal weapons now, I'm sure they'll never get access to any gun if Gun Prohibition comes into play. Just like how during prohibition none of the bad guys got access to booze.

/Sarcasm

Here is what I wrote on FB to a friend who insisted that I engage in the discussion of gun control NOW and stop avoiding it:

Quote
Since its not too soon for you, food for thoughts: Israeli teachers are allowed to carry and don't have these attacks. This pieve of **** deliberately targeted an elementary school: school zone = "gun free", young kids = "defenseless."

The kid stole the guns from his parents, who owned them legally, but in a state that has some of the most strict gun control laws around. He also had body armor (highly regulated in CT.)

Of course drugs are illegal (highly available and consumed) and during prohibition so was booze. In a country with borders like ours its also impossible to keep out illegal guns. Net result: the only people with guns will be the police and the bad guys.

Now we add in the history of private gun ownership: it's been critical in ensuring the safety of private citizens for the last 100 years (at least) in areas where police were incompetent, indifferent, or even involved in the the criminal element. The history of gun control in the US originates, like many progressive ideas, from racism. Control the guns, limit the ability of southern blacks to defend themselves, make them easier to control and force to submit. That's why MLK Jr favored the individual right to keep and bear arms. And exercised it himself.

Like many regulations this would unfairly target the poor and middle income earners - outright gun bans would have loop holes for collectors and private security, etc. Loopholes the wealthy with their access to lawyers would exploit, or would hire private security to avoid. Politicians of course will still expect to be protected by their escorts of police, military, secret security, and personal private security. As usual the elit would avoid the law. Just like the wealthy are able to get prescriptions to expensive drugs, while the rest have to go on the streets.

You would tell us now is the time to press for changes, only a tragedy like this can remove the vail and get our politicians motivated to finally do something. I think this may be true. But that this something will be good is a highly dubios assertion. In the days after 9/11 there was a low road to do something - we were warned about over reaction and targeting all foreigners or all Muslims or all men looking like they might be from the ME. And these were wise warnings (and turned out to be superfluous). But momentum did build to give us to lasting legislative acts of emotion: TSA and the Patriot Act. TSA is an abject failure. The Patriot Act is more of a mixed bag, but even there I think its clear the law went to far and left too much room for both Bush and Obama to expand executive power.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #144 on: December 15, 2012, 09:32:58 AM »

Offline chambers

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The federal gov't and state gov't have been so effective at Drug Control, that I'm sure they'll be just as effective at Gun Control. And of course just like how bad guys don't have access to illegal weapons now, I'm sure they'll never get access to any gun if Gun Prohibition comes into play. Just like how during prohibition none of the bad guys got access to booze.

/Sarcasm

Here is what I wrote on FB to a friend who insisted that I engage in the discussion of gun control NOW and stop avoiding it:

Quote
Since its not too soon for you, food for thoughts: Israeli teachers are allowed to carry and don't have these attacks. This pieve of **** deliberately targeted an elementary school: school zone = "gun free", young kids = "defenseless."

The kid stole the guns from his parents, who owned them legally, but in a state that has some of the most strict gun control laws around. He also had body armor (highly regulated in CT.)

Of course drugs are illegal (highly available and consumed) and during prohibition so was booze. In a country with borders like ours its also impossible to keep out illegal guns. Net result: the only people with guns will be the police and the bad guys.

Now we add in the history of private gun ownership: it's been critical in ensuring the safety of private citizens for the last 100 years (at least) in areas where police were incompetent, indifferent, or even involved in the the criminal element. The history of gun control in the US originates, like many progressive ideas, from racism. Control the guns, limit the ability of southern blacks to defend themselves, make them easier to control and force to submit. That's why MLK Jr favored the individual right to keep and bear arms. And exercised it himself.

Like many regulations this would unfairly target the poor and middle income earners - outright gun bans would have loop holes for collectors and private security, etc. Loopholes the wealthy with their access to lawyers would exploit, or would hire private security to avoid. Politicians of course will still expect to be protected by their escorts of police, military, secret security, and personal private security. As usual the elit would avoid the law. Just like the wealthy are able to get prescriptions to expensive drugs, while the rest have to go on the streets.

You would tell us now is the time to press for changes, only a tragedy like this can remove the vail and get our politicians motivated to finally do something. I think this may be true. But that this something will be good is a highly dubios assertion. In the days after 9/11 there was a low road to do something - we were warned about over reaction and targeting all foreigners or all Muslims or all men looking like they might be from the ME. And these were wise warnings (and turned out to be superfluous). But momentum did build to give us to lasting legislative acts of emotion: TSA and the Patriot Act. TSA is an abject failure. The Patriot Act is more of a mixed bag, but even there I think its clear the law went to far and left too much room for both Bush and Obama to expand executive power.


well that's certainly helping the problem isn't it.
Drugs are readily available in the UK and Australia. Guns aren't.
People don't get murdered, die or shot up in cinemas or schools. I wonder why?
Are Americans crazier than the British or Australians? Or do they have easier access to guns?
Again, this kid got the guns from his parents who legally owned guns. Fine, they legally owned them.
Why do they need to legally own them? Why were the guns there and why did they have a need for the guns?
You can make as many excuses as you want but it works in other countries so it could work in the USA. It would take time, but more guns is not the answer. The USA has been trying that for the last 25 years.
Make it harder for ANYONE to get guns and eventually, the gun population will decrease and subsequently, the murder rate will too.
Less guns=less murder.
It's not that freakin hard.

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Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #145 on: December 15, 2012, 11:22:10 AM »

Offline OmarSekou

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Can I ask a serious question, not trying to troll one bit, but I've yet to get a straight answer to this.

What makes people think it will be that much harder for a person committed to violence to obtain a gun if they get outlawed?
I've been avoiding this thread because it's depressing. Huge tragedy.

I think if guns are outlawed (meaning your guns would have to be stored at a gun club or hunting range or somewhere secure, and you'd have to check them out to use them) it would give cops a lot more power. They could resolve situations faster because they would have a significant advantage in firepower.

As far as violent people getting guns, they still could. But over time more guns would be taken off the streets and put in secure locations. And if the laws for having a gun in public became stricter, fewer people would do it.

No clue if that'd actually work, but I think that's the theory. The thing is, I don't here a ton of stories about how guns have saved people's lives. I'm sure there are plenty, but when you stack them up against the number of gun deaths I don't think it adds up favorably for guns being allowed in homes and on the street.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 11:52:48 AM by OmarSekou »

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #146 on: December 15, 2012, 11:28:56 AM »

Offline OmarSekou

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I agree something has to be done.  But I think the concentration needs to be on the people, not the weapons.  Sure, things can be done to help make these things harder, but crazy people will find a way.

This whole thing is just so terrible, it is hard to wrap my head around.  But I just think the more attention is paid to things like the guns, the less attention will be paid to the real problem, which is whatever is wrong in the person's head to make them even consider doing something like this.
I agree with you. But taking away/limiting guns is easier than overhauling our treatment of mental illness. We're still figuring out how to treat mental illness, and that's not even getting into the mess of what it would take as far as healthcare reform.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #147 on: December 15, 2012, 11:46:39 AM »

Offline OmarSekou

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But IMO, the biggest problem is not mental health or putting more guns into the equation. It's more about how can we stop watching the others as people, and start watching them as non-people. I don't find any other answer to why someone kills another one who isn't threatening his life.
That's what the mental health issue is...figuring out how and why these people do these things. That's the hardest thing to think about in these tragedies...the perpetrator was a person too. How does someone go from being a person to being a monster, and how can it be prevented/controlled.

For example, if the killer was emotionally unstable since birth, then mental health treatment would be in place to control his urges. Or if someone is truly unreachable, have a class of jobs (soldier during war and executioner popped into my head) where these can get some sort of release and be separated from the general public.

If we start to categorize ourselves as people and non-people...it can have some pretty bad results. Where do you set the boundary for a non-person?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 11:57:17 AM by OmarSekou »

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #148 on: December 15, 2012, 12:11:08 PM »

Offline The4Time2Doctor0

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I dont care why they do these things. we have to identify and remove these people from the general public. medication is not a cure all or a stop gap measure. this coward did not wake up insane, his parents knew, others knew. he should have been locked away a long time ago. we have to admit that we can not fix everyone. its sad, but true.

Re: school shooting at Newtown Conn elementary school
« Reply #149 on: December 15, 2012, 01:15:50 PM »

Offline dinome18

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Hey dark lord this isn't about you or your kids. It's about a horrible tragedy that needs proactive measures to be sure it never happens again. It amazes me how individuals still find a way to make things about them and how it affects their lives rather than society as a whole.

 

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