Author Topic: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)  (Read 2787 times)

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Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2012, 10:51:27 AM »

Offline ssspence

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I am for it, but you have to find another team for Green. 



There is no point in adding Green when they already have a SF who is the same age with similar stats.  Heck, they even make almost the same amount.

I have a hard time believing Williams is the long term solution at SF for them. If you're referring to Hayward, isn't he a 2?

My assumption is that they'd like to turn Jefferson and / or Millsap into value at the 1 or the 3.




Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2012, 10:56:34 AM »

Offline alajet

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I would have to shoot down that trade,

On our side
   AB is an young elite defender at the 1/2, the league is currently built on a foundation of dominate 1/2 guards. ABs skill set is highly valuable and hard to come by.
   
   Green is playing better. If you look at the SF position in tiers especially using his per 40min stats, Green is in a 3rd tier group. 1st James, Durant, Anthony 2nd Pierce, Gay, George... 3rd Deng, GREEN, Prince, Budinger... Green has room to grow into that 2nd tier and average 15+pt 6+rb 1.5stl, 1.5blks and with his size he is worth keeping with Rondo.

   Lee, im open for trading due to roster redundancy (though his size is useful)

With all that said I would trade AB and Green for the right player.... Just AL isn't that player

AL, is a ball stopper on O, not what you want with rondo. He isn't a defensive anchor, this particularly hurts as he would be our best big  post KG. 

Id rather make a play at bigs that will require less stripping of out talent

1. Okafor
2. Dalembert

Sort of nitpicking, but I wouldn't put Green in the same tier with Deng. Deng is currently better than Paul George, anyway, in my opinion.
Though, I'd also say Green is better than Prince or Budinger, perhaps not statistically, but through overall skillset.

For the howevermanieth times Ive said this towards a Big Al trade... NO!

Everywhere the dude goes his team gets worse with him on it. Love the guy, great unorthodox offensive player. But he is lost on the defensive end. He is going to command a boatload of money that he doesnt deserve because he is always going to be the "put up big numbers on not very good teams" guy.

  I'd say that the teams Al went to getting worse had a lot more to do with losing KG or Deron/Boozer/Okur than Al's play with them. He's definitely a decent player. Not a great defender, but he's the same height as Green or Sully and he's playing center on defense. We've seen how that works out here, every time KG goes to the bench. Stick him on the court with KG/PP/Rondo/Bradley and we'd still have a top defense.


Yes, his lack of elite defensive skills have got nothing to do with the miserable results those teams put. It's a bit coincidental.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 11:49:13 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Absolutely not.

Jefferson is a one-dimensional ball stopper whose defense is wholly inadequate for a team that's already struggling with championship level defense.

I have zero interest in getting the old 24-win gang together - in any way, shape or form.


Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 11:53:19 AM »

Online Who

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Utah is getting too much in that trade. Either Green + sweetners for Big Al or Bradley for Big Al (keeping Green, Lee, draft picks) but not a trade package including all Green, Bradley and sweetners. Overpaying. That trade would make the Celtics worse.

If Hayward was in the deal too, yeah, I would consider that. I like Hayward a lot. I am a bit disappointed in his play so far this season though. I expected him to take another step forward and be a consistent 15-17ppg, 4rpg, 3-4apg guy. He is still being too passive. I want to see him take more leadership of his team. He is their best perimeter player.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 12:04:17 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Absolutely not.

Jefferson is a one-dimensional ball stopper whose defense is wholly inadequate for a team that's already struggling with championship level defense.

I have zero interest in getting the old 24-win gang together - in any way, shape or form.

  You realize we went to the nba finals twice and won a title with the majority of our starting lineup coming from that 24-win gang, right?

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 12:43:53 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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  I'd take Bradley, Foye and Carrol out of the deal.

Doubt Utah has any interest w/ out Bradley.

You are Danny Ainge. 

It's the day of the 2013 Trade Deadline, February 21st.  The Celtics have gradually improved over the course of the season, and currently stand 6 games over .500 at 30-24, though you just watched your team get beaten by double digits against the finally-putting-it-together Lakers.  Your guys are fighting neck and neck for second in the Atlantic division; at this point, it's looking increasingly unlikely that the Cs will catch the Knicks, who are on pace to win 60 games.

A big part of the Celtics' improvement over the past couple of months has been Jeff Green becoming more assertive and consistent as he has gained confidence, averaging 13.5 points in 25 minutes a night off the bench on decent shooting. 

Avery Bradley's return was huge, as well, and though he hasn't quite duplicated the fiery shooting he displayed during his breakout month last season, he's shown that the shoulder surgeries aren't going to hold him back moving forward, averaging 9 points and 1.5 steals a game in 25 minutes, starting the majority of the games he's played in since his return.

Dennis Lindsey, the GM of the Utah Jazz, calls you up before the deadline and tries to sell you on a deal centered around bringing soon to be free agent Al Jefferson back to Boston.

First, he offers you:

Big Al ($15 mil)
Randy Foye ($2.5 mil)
DeMarre Carrol ($885k)

Total: 18.3 mil

In return, he asks for:

Avery Bradley ($1.6 mil)
Jeff Green ($8.4 mil)
Courtney Lee ($5 mil)
2013 1st Round Pick (likely late teens to mid 20s)

Total: $15 mil (can throw in a Collins or a Joseph to make salaries work)

Do you consider this offer?  Do you hold out for Gordon Hayward ($2.7 mil), or could you accept this deal with Foye?

It would mean moving KG back to PF, and would disrupt team chemistry a bit.  But your team isn't exactly blowing people away anyhow, despite showing improvement, and adding Big Al would give you an inside scoring presence you haven't had since a healthy Shaq played for a couple months at the start of the 2010-2011 season (Big Al is averaging about 18 points on 50% shooting), and the team looked great back then.  He would really help on the boards, too (he's grabbing 10.5 boards a game). 

If you got Hayward, he would make your starting lineup a lot bigger, too, and Hayward isn't bad on the boards, either.  Carroll isn't to be overlooked, either, as he's been fairly good in limited minutes.  Still, this would be a pretty radical change.

What do you do?

I just wanted to point out that 30-24 wouldn't be an improvement on our current record.

Apologies for the nit pick.

We're 12-9 so I guess it depends if we're talking about proportionate pace over the course of the season or just games over .500.  My thinking was games over .500 -- and the team can be "improving" without actually showing any significant improvement in winning percentage.  A lot of competitors can be improving, too.


As I pointed out in my own Jazz trade thread, I think Utah is a destination that makes a lot of sense for Green should he be traded this year.

I'd rather have Millsap long term than Jefferson, but I can see Danny being interested in either if this team continues to struggle on the glass.

Millsap for Green works straight up.

The problem is that Millsap fits much better long-term with Favors / Kanter, so I have a hard time seeing the Jazz getting rid of him so easily.


  I'd take Bradley, Foye and Carrol out of the deal.

Doubt Utah has any interest w/ out Bradley.

You are Danny Ainge. 

It's the day of the 2013 Trade Deadline, February 21st.  The Celtics have gradually improved over the course of the season, and currently stand 6 games over .500 at 30-24, though you just watched your team get beaten by double digits against the finally-putting-it-together Lakers.  Your guys are fighting neck and neck for second in the Atlantic division; at this point, it's looking increasingly unlikely that the Cs will catch the Knicks, who are on pace to win 60 games.

A big part of the Celtics' improvement over the past couple of months has been Jeff Green becoming more assertive and consistent as he has gained confidence, averaging 13.5 points in 25 minutes a night off the bench on decent shooting. 

Avery Bradley's return was huge, as well, and though he hasn't quite duplicated the fiery shooting he displayed during his breakout month last season, he's shown that the shoulder surgeries aren't going to hold him back moving forward, averaging 9 points and 1.5 steals a game in 25 minutes, starting the majority of the games he's played in since his return.

Dennis Lindsey, the GM of the Utah Jazz, calls you up before the deadline and tries to sell you on a deal centered around bringing soon to be free agent Al Jefferson back to Boston.

First, he offers you:

Big Al ($15 mil)
Randy Foye ($2.5 mil)
DeMarre Carrol ($885k)

Total: 18.3 mil

In return, he asks for:

Avery Bradley ($1.6 mil)
Jeff Green ($8.4 mil)
Courtney Lee ($5 mil)
2013 1st Round Pick (likely late teens to mid 20s)

Total: $15 mil (can throw in a Collins or a Joseph to make salaries work)

Do you consider this offer?  Do you hold out for Gordon Hayward ($2.7 mil), or could you accept this deal with Foye?

It would mean moving KG back to PF, and would disrupt team chemistry a bit.  But your team isn't exactly blowing people away anyhow, despite showing improvement, and adding Big Al would give you an inside scoring presence you haven't had since a healthy Shaq played for a couple months at the start of the 2010-2011 season (Big Al is averaging about 18 points on 50% shooting), and the team looked great back then.  He would really help on the boards, too (he's grabbing 10.5 boards a game). 

If you got Hayward, he would make your starting lineup a lot bigger, too, and Hayward isn't bad on the boards, either.  Carroll isn't to be overlooked, either, as he's been fairly good in limited minutes.  Still, this would be a pretty radical change.

What do you do?

I just wanted to point out that 30-24 wouldn't be an improvement on our current record.

Apologies for the nit pick.

We're 12-9 so I guess it depends if we're talking about proportionate pace over the course of the season or just games over .500.  My thinking was games over .500 -- and the team can be "improving" without actually showing any significant improvement in winning percentage.  A lot of competitors can be improving, too.


As I pointed out in my own Jazz trade thread, I think Utah is a destination that makes a lot of sense for Green should he be traded this year.

I'd rather have Millsap long term than Jefferson, but I can see Danny being interested in either if this team continues to struggle on the glass.

Millsap for Green works straight up.

The problem is that Millsap fits much better long-term with Favors / Kanter, so I have a hard time seeing the Jazz getting rid of him so easily.

There is no point in adding Green when they already have a SF who is the same age with similar stats.  Heck, they even make almost the same amount.

I don't think Marvin and Jeff are mutually exclusive -- you could play them both at the same time, at least in a small-ball lineup, and be theoretically effective.  Also you'll notice the premise of the trade scenario is that Jeff has been playing a lot better over the past couple of months -- 13.5 pts in 25 minutes is much better than Marvin.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 12:51:57 PM by PhoSita »
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2012, 12:53:35 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Utah is getting too much in that trade. Either Green + sweetners for Big Al or Bradley for Big Al (keeping Green, Lee, draft picks) but not a trade package including all Green, Bradley and sweetners. Overpaying. That trade would make the Celtics worse.

If Hayward was in the deal too, yeah, I would consider that. I like Hayward a lot. I am a bit disappointed in his play so far this season though. I expected him to take another step forward and be a consistent 15-17ppg, 4rpg, 3-4apg guy. He is still being too passive. I want to see him take more leadership of his team. He is their best perimeter player.

Yes, as you and Roy (and others) have noted, the first iteration of the trade is a low-ball, for sure.  I would not do the trade without Hayward in it.

That was kind of idea though -- I figure the GM is always going to start you off with a low-ball offer.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 02:40:52 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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PhoSita, I think the problem with your idea is that it primarily improves our 1st team offense, which is not actually a weakness for this year's team. Our primary areas of concern are the overall performance of the bench and our defense.

If you could find a similar deal for a center who plays elite defense the way that al jefferson plays elite offense, that would be really interesting. Who is that player? I'm not sure. Andrew Bogut, perhaps.


Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 02:44:46 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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As I pointed out in my own Jazz trade thread, I think Utah is a destination that makes a lot of sense for Green should he be traded this year.

I'd rather have Millsap long term than Jefferson, but I can see Danny being interested in either if this team continues to struggle on the glass.

Millsap for Green works straight up.


Why on earth would the Jazz trade us Paul Millsap for Jeff Green? Can we trade them Sullinger for Favors, too?

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 03:00:27 PM »

Online wdleehi

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I am for it, but you have to find another team for Green. 



There is no point in adding Green when they already have a SF who is the same age with similar stats.  Heck, they even make almost the same amount.

I have a hard time believing Williams is the long term solution at SF for them. If you're referring to Hayward, isn't he a 2?

My assumption is that they'd like to turn Jefferson and / or Millsap into value at the 1 or the 3.


Show me the great difference between Green and Williams worth giving up Jefferson.


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 03:25:11 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I am for it, but you have to find another team for Green. 



There is no point in adding Green when they already have a SF who is the same age with similar stats.  Heck, they even make almost the same amount.

I have a hard time believing Williams is the long term solution at SF for them. If you're referring to Hayward, isn't he a 2?

My assumption is that they'd like to turn Jefferson and / or Millsap into value at the 1 or the 3.


Show me the great difference between Green and Williams worth giving up Jefferson.

That you're getting Bradley in the deal, too, which is pretty big. 

That Green and Williams can conceivably play together, so they are not mutually exclusive.  Indeed, Marvin has been best at PF in his career, while Green has been best at SF.

That Green perhaps has some potential to improve, still, while Marvin probably is who he is. 

Again, this trade scenario is contingent on Green having established some value for himself over the next two months by providing consistent reasonably efficient scoring off the bench.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:30:47 PM by PhoSita »
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 03:30:09 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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PhoSita, I think the problem with your idea is that it primarily improves our 1st team offense, which is not actually a weakness for this year's team. Our primary areas of concern are the overall performance of the bench and our defense.

If you could find a similar deal for a center who plays elite defense the way that al jefferson plays elite offense, that would be really interesting. Who is that player? I'm not sure. Andrew Bogut, perhaps.

I don't think there's a trade that's really on the table for a player like that.

Also, while I agree that part of the team's problem is interior defense, another is that they rely on Pierce and KG to carry the entire offensive burden, night in and night out, which they are frankly too old to do without having issues with consistency.  I would argue that CONSISTENCY, on both offense and defense, is the #1 problem of this year's team so far.

Even when Paul and KG have it in them to score, that takes away from their ability to do as good a job on the other end.

Imagine how energized Paul and KG could be defensively if they got easier looks on the offensive end.  Think of how smoothly the Cs offense flowed when they had Shaq eating up space down low on offense, getting high percentage looks at the basket.  Even having a guy like Wilcox on the floor adds a small element of that, and it makes a big different.  When this team scores more easily, it feeds into their defense.  The opposite is true, as well.

Ideally, the team would procure a tall, long big man who can provide great interior defense and also some post scoring.

But Tyson Chandler is on the Knicks, and I don't think he's getting traded.  So unless the Cs can put together a package for Varejao (which I doubt), Big Al seems like the best available option.

That said -- it's important to note that I presented this trade scenario not necessarily as something I WANT to happen, but just something I could see happening.  Something I would have to seriously consider if I were in Danny's position.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 05:10:17 PM »

Online wdleehi

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I am for it, but you have to find another team for Green. 



There is no point in adding Green when they already have a SF who is the same age with similar stats.  Heck, they even make almost the same amount.

I have a hard time believing Williams is the long term solution at SF for them. If you're referring to Hayward, isn't he a 2?

My assumption is that they'd like to turn Jefferson and / or Millsap into value at the 1 or the 3.


Show me the great difference between Green and Williams worth giving up Jefferson.

That you're getting Bradley in the deal, too, which is pretty big. 

That Green and Williams can conceivably play together, so they are not mutually exclusive.  Indeed, Marvin has been best at PF in his career, while Green has been best at SF.

That Green perhaps has some potential to improve, still, while Marvin probably is who he is. 

Again, this trade scenario is contingent on Green having established some value for himself over the next two months by providing consistent reasonably efficient scoring off the bench.


Same age.


Similar size and stats.



Both consistent year after year.


Why would Green have more potential?




There would need to be a third team that wants Green and will give something to Utah that makes them ready to move Jefferson. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 05:27:08 PM »

Offline BleedGreen1989

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For the howevermanieth times Ive said this towards a Big Al trade... NO!

Everywhere the dude goes his team gets worse with him on it. Love the guy, great unorthodox offensive player. But he is lost on the defensive end. He is going to command a boatload of money that he doesnt deserve because he is always going to be the "put up big numbers on not very good teams" guy.

Everybody wants to rip Al for putting up big numbers on a bad team. Name one good team he's played for? Nobody even knows how he's do on a contender, to rip him for such is just unfair
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Re: Imagine the Following (Jazz Trade)
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2012, 05:53:13 PM »

Offline Edgar

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big man wins
i am sold


p.s. nice op
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