Author Topic: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?  (Read 3254 times)

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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2012, 05:03:28 PM »

Offline snively

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The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.

But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.

Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.

You are straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel: that's a much more flawed metric than the one you are trying to minimize.  More shots does not equal taking better care of the ball.

To be sure, Rondo passes sometimes when he should shoot,  but it's a minor flaw that gets exaggerated with over-familiarity.
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2012, 05:16:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard.  But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc).  I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.

  Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?

  By the way, while this thread has gotten a little side-tracked, your original comment involved passing and the poor decisions that Rondo makes (that Kidd and Nash don't). Rondo's been a starter for 6 years, so I compared Rondo and Nash and Kidd in terms of assist/bad pass ratio over that time. If you just take a simple average (add their assist/bad pass ratios and divide by 6) Nash is 3.9/1, Kidd is 4.4/1 and Rondo is 5/1.

  I didn't total the assists and bad passes over those 6 years for more accuracy but Rondo's lead is large enough that he'd still be ahead in such a case. Also, in those 6 years, Rondo had the best assist/bad pass ratio 4 times and tied for best the other two years. So for all the talk about fga and the like, there's no doubt that Rondo passes the ball more efficiently than either Nash or Kidd.

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2012, 08:54:13 PM »

Offline action781

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I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard.  But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc).  I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.

  Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?

  By the way, while this thread has gotten a little side-tracked, your original comment involved passing and the poor decisions that Rondo makes (that Kidd and Nash don't). Rondo's been a starter for 6 years, so I compared Rondo and Nash and Kidd in terms of assist/bad pass ratio over that time. If you just take a simple average (add their assist/bad pass ratios and divide by 6) Nash is 3.9/1, Kidd is 4.4/1 and Rondo is 5/1.

  I didn't total the assists and bad passes over those 6 years for more accuracy but Rondo's lead is large enough that he'd still be ahead in such a case. Also, in those 6 years, Rondo had the best assist/bad pass ratio 4 times and tied for best the other two years. So for all the talk about fga and the like, there's no doubt that Rondo passes the ball more efficiently than either Nash or Kidd.

Your question to me was "if they didn't have the same questionable tendencies..." but if you look back to my post, I actually said that "I'm sure they DO have questionable tendencies".  Why do they have to be the same?  Every player has different tendencies.  It would be a pretty boring game if they didn't.  I'm just discussing Rondo's because I'm a celtics fan and watch a lot of celtics games.

So, to get to the essence of that particular tendency of Rondo's in question, there's a difference between turnovers by terrible decision and by not executing the pass.

In the NBA, most passing turnovers are committed by not executing the pass properly.  Often times, windows to pass through for assisted baskets are very small and the pass has to be thrown very precisely.  Trying to make a bounce pass to a back door cutting Avery Bradley on the baseline that goes past your defenders leg and under Avery's defender's arm while Avery is sprinting full speed that hits him right where his hands will be is very difficult.  Often times the ball simply won't make it to that spot.  Rondo is one of the BEST in the game (if not the best) at executing these passes.  Sometimes, these turnovers will be characterized as "poor decision making" because it was a poor decision to make a pass into such a small window with only a certain % chance of being received.  That's understandable and makes sense, but it was still a turnover because the pass was not thrown exactly where it needed to be.  The majority of passing turnovers will fall into this category.  Rondo is an amazingly precise passer which is why his assist/turnover ratio is so great and his efficiency is better than Nash or Kidd (I didn't look up and will take you at your word).

My gripe is his the other kind of turnover... the one where he just blatantly makes the wrong decision of pass vs. shoot.  That is when he is has a perfectly open and makable shot (inside of 10 feet), but he turns the shot down to pass and that pass is turned over.  That's the tendency of Rondo that makes me wonder what's going on.  I think he's too intelligent of a player to think that's the basketball play that will result in the best outcome in those situations.
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2012, 09:46:02 PM »

Offline OmarSekou

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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years.

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2012, 10:34:54 PM »

Offline action781

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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years.

5 titles in 3 years huh?  why stop at 5?  why not say 10?

Funny, some cb posters think its unthinkable to have any concern related to rondo's passing too much.  NBA fans and the media were all over lebron for passing up shots at the end of games a few years ago (the pass to donyell marshall particularly comes to mind).  Yet lebron was well defended and marshall was wide open on that play... and lebron got criticized for that play.  Yet when someone calls to question rondo passing up wide open shots to give it to teammates who are already defended (and said passes end up being turnovers) posters here make it out to be utterly absurd.
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2012, 10:42:27 PM »

Offline fitzhickey

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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2012, 11:43:21 PM »

Online D.o.s.

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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years.

 ;D

Rondo definitely keeps an eye on (and for) his own numbers, and since he's our PG we key in on his deficiencies rather than enjoying his style.

That said, when you watch 70 or more Celtics games a season, there are definitely times when he doesn't play up to the bar that we set for him.
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Can't read the entire thread but cone people.

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2012, 12:42:42 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard.  But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc).  I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.

  Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?

  By the way, while this thread has gotten a little side-tracked, your original comment involved passing and the poor decisions that Rondo makes (that Kidd and Nash don't). Rondo's been a starter for 6 years, so I compared Rondo and Nash and Kidd in terms of assist/bad pass ratio over that time. If you just take a simple average (add their assist/bad pass ratios and divide by 6) Nash is 3.9/1, Kidd is 4.4/1 and Rondo is 5/1.

  I didn't total the assists and bad passes over those 6 years for more accuracy but Rondo's lead is large enough that he'd still be ahead in such a case. Also, in those 6 years, Rondo had the best assist/bad pass ratio 4 times and tied for best the other two years. So for all the talk about fga and the like, there's no doubt that Rondo passes the ball more efficiently than either Nash or Kidd.

Your question to me was "if they didn't have the same questionable tendencies..." but if you look back to my post, I actually said that "I'm sure they DO have questionable tendencies".  Why do they have to be the same?  Every player has different tendencies.  It would be a pretty boring game if they didn't.  I'm just discussing Rondo's because I'm a celtics fan and watch a lot of celtics games.

So, to get to the essence of that particular tendency of Rondo's in question, there's a difference between turnovers by terrible decision and by not executing the pass.

In the NBA, most passing turnovers are committed by not executing the pass properly.  Often times, windows to pass through for assisted baskets are very small and the pass has to be thrown very precisely.  Trying to make a bounce pass to a back door cutting Avery Bradley on the baseline that goes past your defenders leg and under Avery's defender's arm while Avery is sprinting full speed that hits him right where his hands will be is very difficult.  Often times the ball simply won't make it to that spot.  Rondo is one of the BEST in the game (if not the best) at executing these passes.  Sometimes, these turnovers will be characterized as "poor decision making" because it was a poor decision to make a pass into such a small window with only a certain % chance of being received.  That's understandable and makes sense, but it was still a turnover because the pass was not thrown exactly where it needed to be.  The majority of passing turnovers will fall into this category.  Rondo is an amazingly precise passer which is why his assist/turnover ratio is so great and his efficiency is better than Nash or Kidd (I didn't look up and will take you at your word).

My gripe is his the other kind of turnover... the one where he just blatantly makes the wrong decision of pass vs. shoot.  That is when he is has a perfectly open and makable shot (inside of 10 feet), but he turns the shot down to pass and that pass is turned over.  That's the tendency of Rondo that makes me wonder what's going on.  I think he's too intelligent of a player to think that's the basketball play that will result in the best outcome in those situations.

  Rondo makes a number of difficult passes a game and connects on most of them. He might attempt, from your example, 6 of those seeing-eye bounce passes to Avery on cuts and end up with 2 turnovers and 4 layups. That doesn't mean that he made 4 good decisions and 2 bad ones, it means he made 6 good decisions and we ended up with 8 points in 6 trips, very efficient scoring.

 

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