Author Topic: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?  (Read 3415 times)

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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2012, 10:57:19 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
I don't think it's unbelievable. He passed up a wide open floater in the first quarter to drop the ball into traffic and turn it over yesterday. He makes mistakes when he tries to overpass, that's a fact. Luckily, these are fewer and farther between these days than they've been in the past.

I don't know if this is the same one I saw, but I definitely saw one too.  I thought it was in the 3rd quarter though.  Could be the same, could be a different instance.  8 feet from the hoop in the lane, in mid air, open and passed it into traffic for a turnover?

I love the accusations from the "Rondo supporters" that people who wonder if Rondo is thinking too much assists are are "Rondo haters" and criticize everything he does.  Is it really so treasonous to be curious when a remarkably intelligent Rajon Rondo has a wide open shot from 8 feet, is literally uncontested in mid air about to take the wide open shot and decides to pass into traffic and turn the ball over?

  I think he generally decides what he's going to do before he's in mid-air but the play doesn't work out every time.

I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard.  But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc).  I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.

  Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2012, 11:37:38 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).

Undoubtedly, if you handle the ball a lot and are expected to make stuff happen, you'll turn it over more than, say, a spot-up shooter would. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think Rondo's propensity to make ill-advised passes is worse than, say, Pierce's propensity to take ill-advised shots at this point. But it's a real issue.

This doesn't in any way belittle the fact that rond's having a phenomenal year, but that's a different discussion altogether.
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2012, 01:08:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).

  Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2012, 01:42:05 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).

  Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
Of course it isn't.

Using assist to turnover ratio assumes that the only productive indicator of a possession is an assist. It patently ignores the fact that Nash takes a shot more per game, and Kidd takes two shots more per game, on average.

edit: I did, in fact, look at the wrong column on Kidd's stat sheet, so that talk about 1.9 TO per game is not qutie true :)
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2012, 01:57:45 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).

  Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
Of course it isn't.

Using assist to turnover ratio assumes that the only productive indicator of a possession is an assist. It patently ignores the fact that Nash takes a shot more per game, and Kidd takes two shots more per game, on average.

  The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2012, 02:05:28 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.

But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.

Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2012, 02:45:13 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.

But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.

Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.

  That's kind of silly, but if you want to go down that route then you'd need to explain why you consider missed shots to be "taking good care of the ball".

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2012, 03:02:41 PM »

Offline action781

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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night.  IMO, it was his worst of the year.  Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is.  A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.

But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.

  I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.

I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on.  I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2012, 03:19:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night.  IMO, it was his worst of the year.  Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is.  A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.

But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.

  I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.

I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on.  I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game

  Obviously we weren't talking about Mayo, but he played the last 17 minutes of the game. Ignoring the buzzer-beating uncontested 3 after the game was decided he had 7 points, 2 rebound, 2 assists and 4 turnovers during that time. I don't know that I'd call that great finishing, but opinions vary.

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2012, 03:26:31 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on.  I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game

How much of that was Mayo and how much of that was Rondo playing with five fouls and tired because Doc didn't give him a rest in the middle of the half?
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2012, 03:41:17 PM »

Offline action781

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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night.  IMO, it was his worst of the year.  Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is.  A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.

But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.

  I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.

I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on.  I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game

  Obviously we weren't talking about Mayo, but he played the last 17 minutes of the game. Ignoring the buzzer-beating uncontested 3 after the game was decided he had 7 points, 2 rebound, 2 assists and 4 turnovers during that time. I don't know that I'd call that great finishing, but opinions vary.

Oh, yup.  Smooshed in your response here with the one above this from pearljammer as I was reading through the thread.

Those were his second half stats or just the last 17 minutes?  Wow, for some reason I thought he had more after halftime (I don't know where to look that up).  Or maybe his plays were just nice looking so jumped out to me?  I did have a bit to drink while watching.
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2012, 03:49:26 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on.  I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game

How much of that was Mayo and how much of that was Rondo playing with five fouls and tired because Doc didn't give him a rest in the middle of the half?
A combination of the two. Doc even mentioned it today when he talked to the media.

Mayo also definitely attacked aggressively when he was able to get switched onto Terry or even Lee. Rondo was really suffocating him while they were matched up for the most part. I was very happy with Rondo's effort last night.

Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2012, 03:56:27 PM »

Offline action781

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I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on.  I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game

How much of that was Mayo and how much of that was Rondo playing with five fouls and tired because Doc didn't give him a rest in the middle of the half?
A combination of the two. Doc even mentioned it today when he talked to the media.

Mayo also definitely attacked aggressively when he was able to get switched onto Terry or even Lee. Rondo was really suffocating him while they were matched up for the most part. I was very happy with Rondo's effort last night.

Rondo did a great job on Mayo in the first quarter from what I remember.  I particularly remember being unimpressed with Lee's defense on Mayo.  I'm one who usually raves on this blog about Lee's defense (and even started a thread about it). 
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2012, 04:02:21 PM »

Offline action781

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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).

  Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
Of course it isn't.

Using assist to turnover ratio assumes that the only productive indicator of a possession is an assist. It patently ignores the fact that Nash takes a shot more per game, and Kidd takes two shots more per game, on average.

edit: I did, in fact, look at the wrong column on Kidd's stat sheet, so that talk about 1.9 TO per game is not qutie true :)
Yeah, assist/to ratio is not the best indicator of how well a player protects the ball.  This would mean if a 30ppg scorer with great efficiency who averages 2 assist and 1 TO per game would be worse at "protecting the ball" than your typical point guard.


The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.

But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.

Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.

  That's kind of silly, but if you want to go down that route then you'd need to explain why you consider missed shots to be "taking good care of the ball".

This is actually an interesting conversation on what would be a good metric for "protecting the ball".

Initial and very raw idea - What about:  (assists + FGmade)/ (TO + FGmissed)

Gotta run, but will check back on this thread later to see if this evolves
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Re: Rondo's Assists Starting to be problem?
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2012, 04:26:37 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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ASsists are fine.   What annoys me is when he walking the ball up , dribbling away precious offensive secs  , not pushing the ball up court , and then throws the ball away with a horrible pass. It seems for every hi -lite miracle play he makes , there is a high school level turn over. Watching him is an emotional rollercoaster.

 

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