Author Topic: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilcox leads the Celtics in WS/48  (Read 1839 times)

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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 08:45:05 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Agreed - much better defensively + a bit better offensively + Wilcox has struggled with his rebounding this season but he has been a superior rebounder to Sullinger in each of previous seasons.

Wilcox is 6 rebounds per 36 minutes this year and was 9 rebounds per 36 minutes last year. For his career wilcox is 9 rebounds per 36 minutes.

Sullinger in his rookie season in 10 rebounds per 36 minutes.

I dont see how wilcox is the superior rebounder considering sullinger is a rookie and he's putting up the equivalent of wilcox's best career numbers per 36 minutes.
Sully like most rookie big men still struggles with team rebounding. He is good at going and getting the ball but isn't consistent enough in boxing out. 

Wilcox provided better team rebounding and similar individual rebounding numbers. His rebounding has been better in the past than what Sully is doing.

Sully will improve in time and should surpass Wilcox's best rebounding years but he hasn't yet.

He is right now surpassing Wilcox' best rebounding year...

And if Sully does one thing very well, it is box out.  He manages to get position when he has no business getting it because he has such a knack for it.

His confidence in his jumper is also improving so I expect him to improve offensively going forward, especially in pick and pop situations.

I like what Wilcox brings, don't get me wrong, but Sullinger has his strengths and has consistently been getting better.

His defense does need to improve but one thing that has been annoying for me to watch is how he is called for so many ridiculous fouls by the refs.  He is getting the worst possible rookie treatment from them.  He is going to have to be a pretty physical defender so that is going to hurt his defensive game.

He really needs to improve his footwork there but I think he will do so.  He just needs more playing time.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 08:52:25 AM by Snakehead »


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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2012, 09:35:09 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Agreed - much better defensively + a bit better offensively + Wilcox has struggled with his rebounding this season but he has been a superior rebounder to Sullinger in each of previous seasons.

Wilcox is 6 rebounds per 36 minutes this year and was 9 rebounds per 36 minutes last year. For his career wilcox is 9 rebounds per 36 minutes.

Sullinger in his rookie season in 10 rebounds per 36 minutes.

I dont see how wilcox is the superior rebounder considering sullinger is a rookie and he's putting up the equivalent of wilcox's best career numbers per 36 minutes.
Sully like most rookie big men still struggles with team rebounding. He is good at going and getting the ball but isn't consistent enough in boxing out. 

Wilcox provided better team rebounding and similar individual rebounding numbers. His rebounding has been better in the past than what Sully is doing.

Sully will improve in time and should surpass Wilcox's best rebounding years but he hasn't yet.

He is right now surpassing Wilcox' best rebounding year...

And if Sully does one thing very well, it is box out.  He manages to get position when he has no business getting it because he has such a knack for it.

His confidence in his jumper is also improving so I expect him to improve offensively going forward, especially in pick and pop situations.

I like what Wilcox brings, don't get me wrong, but Sullinger has his strengths and has consistently been getting better.

His defense does need to improve but one thing that has been annoying for me to watch is how he is called for so many ridiculous fouls by the refs.  He is getting the worst possible rookie treatment from them.  He is going to have to be a pretty physical defender so that is going to hurt his defensive game.

He really needs to improve his footwork there but I think he will do so.  He just needs more playing time.

Its hard to knock Sully's rebounding when he is our best rebounder and the only player that boxes anybody out.
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2012, 09:47:04 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Chris Wilcox is probably our worst offensive player in the rotation.
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2012, 09:51:08 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Chris Wilcox is probably our worst offensive player in the rotation.
There is a lot of value to being able to finish most anything you catch near the rim. Especially when you're aggressively rolling to it every play in P&R and transition.

I mean its not like don't have enough shooters otherwise on this team.

Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2012, 09:56:16 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Chris Wilcox is probably our worst offensive player in the rotation.
There is a lot of value to being able to finish most anything you catch near the rim. Especially when you're aggressively rolling to it every play in P&R and transition.

I mean its not like don't have enough shooters otherwise on this team.
That's true, except that's not Wilcox. He takes three shots a game, and two of these are wide open dunks. I'm sure there's some value in being able to get open occasionally for a dunk, but that still only makes him a one-trick pony offensively. Sullinger has a jump shot and some inside moves. It's not even close.
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2012, 10:02:42 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Chris Wilcox is probably our worst offensive player in the rotation.
There is a lot of value to being able to finish most anything you catch near the rim. Especially when you're aggressively rolling to it every play in P&R and transition.

I mean its not like don't have enough shooters otherwise on this team.
That's true, except that's not Wilcox. He takes three shots a game, and two of these are wide open dunks. I'm sure there's some value in being able to get open occasionally for a dunk, but that still only makes him a one-trick pony offensively. Sullinger has a jump shot and some inside moves. It's not even close.
Why would we want our backup center to take more than 3 shots in 13 minutes a game? Especially when we've been trying to get Terry/Green involved more offensively.

Sullinger isn't shooting anymore than Wilcox, roughly same rate per minute. Wilcox is just making more of his shots because he's not taking any jumpers. Which is fine by me.

Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2012, 10:44:15 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Chris Wilcox is probably our worst offensive player in the rotation.
There is a lot of value to being able to finish most anything you catch near the rim. Especially when you're aggressively rolling to it every play in P&R and transition.

I mean its not like don't have enough shooters otherwise on this team.
That's true, except that's not Wilcox. He takes three shots a game, and two of these are wide open dunks. I'm sure there's some value in being able to get open occasionally for a dunk, but that still only makes him a one-trick pony offensively. Sullinger has a jump shot and some inside moves. It's not even close.
Why would we want our backup center to take more than 3 shots in 13 minutes a game? Especially when we've been trying to get Terry/Green involved more offensively.

Sullinger isn't shooting anymore than Wilcox, roughly same rate per minute. Wilcox is just making more of his shots because he's not taking any jumpers. Which is fine by me.
He doesn't have to take more than three shots a game. The point is that the fact he makes two open dunks a game and shoots at a 70% clip in the process does not make him a good offensive player.

The better question is why is he playing only 13 minutes a game when our starter is a 28 mpg guy? The answer is simple: he's not that good!
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilcox leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2012, 12:38:41 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Hey, haters! Ease off my boy Wilcox!  ;D

Seriously, though, Wilcox is my favorite Celtic. I love seeing him fly and dunk. Sure, there's stuff he can't do, but I'm not sure what certain people are expecting of him. Throughout his career he's been a great finisher and a decent rebounder (though that's been lacking so far this season), a great energy guy who injects life into his team whenever he's on the court. No, he's not an outside shooter (though this season I have seen him hit a 12-foot turnaround and a 15-foot J), but why are some people acting like every player should be the complete package? Players are what they are, and most of them are not LeBron or Bird or Magic—they can improve in some parts of their game, but in other ways they'll always be quite limited. Sully's never gonna be a high flyer. Perk's never gonna be a good jump shooter. Oh well. Strengthen your weaknesses however you can, but figure out what you do best and focus on that.

Wilcox is a role player, and he's pretty darn good at his role. So he's not a defensive juggernaut like KG (who is?), and he's not an outside shooter. As long as he keeps hustling and finishing alley-oops and energizing his team and grabbing a few boards along the way, I'm happy.

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Edit: None of this is to knock Sully. I like Sully a lot. He's a solid rebounder who has the potential to be a great rebounder, he's developing an outside shot, he's got some post moves, and he hustles. He and Wilcox are different players—complementary, even, in some ways—and that's fine. I don't know why we can't just enjoy these guys for who they are. I'm never gonna expect Wilcox to light it up from outside ... and I'm also never gonna expect Sully to play above the rim.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 12:49:05 PM by rocknrollforyoursoul »
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilcox leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2012, 12:58:58 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Definitely says more about the limitations of the stat than anything else.
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2012, 04:24:59 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Sullinger and Bass are both better than Wilcox . That stat is very misleading .He is a 3rd string PF/C
Wilcox is a much better defender than Sullinger, and arguably better offensively.
Chris Wilcox is probably our worst offensive player in the rotation.
There is a lot of value to being able to finish most anything you catch near the rim. Especially when you're aggressively rolling to it every play in P&R and transition.

I mean its not like don't have enough shooters otherwise on this team.
That's true, except that's not Wilcox. He takes three shots a game, and two of these are wide open dunks. I'm sure there's some value in being able to get open occasionally for a dunk, but that still only makes him a one-trick pony offensively. Sullinger has a jump shot and some inside moves. It's not even close.
Why would we want our backup center to take more than 3 shots in 13 minutes a game? Especially when we've been trying to get Terry/Green involved more offensively.

Sullinger isn't shooting anymore than Wilcox, roughly same rate per minute. Wilcox is just making more of his shots because he's not taking any jumpers. Which is fine by me.

Yeah I couldn't agree more.

We have enough jump shooters on our team.  Outside of Rondo , Pierce and Green, Wilcox is pretty much the only other player attacking the rim and putting pressure on the defense.


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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2012, 05:04:36 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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We have enough jump shooters on our team.  Outside of Rondo , Pierce and Green, Wilcox is pretty much the only other player attacking the rim and putting pressure on the defense.
Barbosa takes 42% of his shots inside, Sullinger takes 46% of his shots inside, Lee takes 30% of his shots inside, Bass takes 23% of his shots inside.

So we seem to have enough guys who want to attack the rim.
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilcox leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2012, 05:06:43 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Net PER's

NET PER is your PER minus the PER of the man you are guarding

+5.8 Rajon Rondo
+5.5 Kevin Garnett
+5.2 Paul Pierce

+3.6 Jason Terry
+2.0 Leandro Barbosa

-0.8 Jeff Green

-5.8 Jared Sullinger
-5.9 Brandon Bass
-6.2 Courtney Lee
-6.7 Chris Wilcox

This actually matches up pretty well with the game by game individual +/- that you see in the box score.  The starters are winning, the bench is losing.

The bench does seem to be improving, slowly but sure though.

Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilcox leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2012, 05:35:03 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Barely, according to basketball-reference.com. .164 to KG's .162.  That would make them 35th and 37th among players with 200 or more minutes played.

Does that suggest that Wilcox is under-appreciated by some here?  Does that suggest that WS/48 is over-rated as a stat by some here?  A little from column A and a little from column B?

No, it just suggests that the sample size is still pretty small.

Check back at the mid-point of the season.

(That said, I personally think that, within his well-defined role and minutes, Wilcox has been playing excellent basketball).
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Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilcox leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2012, 06:35:14 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
So we seem to have enough guys who want to attack the rim.

Any idea what our total number of percentage of shots inside is ?

Re: As of today (Dec 10), Chris Wilxoc leads the Celtics in WS/48
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2012, 09:33:51 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Does that suggest that WS/48 is over-rated as a stat by some here? 
This one

It's not WS, it's the per-48 or per-36 minute projections.  You can't take small samples and just project them over larger samples.  I understand why personnel guys look at it for evaluating free agents that maybe were buried on the bench of another team, but when a guy exceeds in a well-defined reserve role, you can't project his WS out.

 

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