Is PHX the worst run team in the NBA?

[indeedproceed]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

Take a look here:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213PHO.HTM

The Suns are 19.5 points worse with him on the floor vs. off. I checked every other team, and among players who've played more than 30% of their team's minutes, there is no one worse in terms of net plus/minus. Not a single player.

If you dig into the numbers it looks even worse, mostly because Beasley makes his team worse offensively and flat out awful defensively.

                                     On court             Off court

Points scored/48              103                   107
Points allowed/48             118                   100
FG% alllowed                     55%                  48%
Offensive rebounding        28%                 33%
Defensive rebounding       67%                  73%


This surprised me. There is actually a case here that he is one of the worst players in the league, at least compared to other players with substantive court time.

That is impressive. I've been waiting for a while for someone, anyone to compile 82games's on/off court ratings into a sortable database.

But even then, I'd say a bit of it has to do with circumstance. Phoenix's starters were going to take a pounding. Beasley needed a tailored unit to succeed before. Now, on a rebuilding team (again), he's got even less of a chance.

[KGs Knee]

Dumars to me has had two major missteps:

1) Darko

This is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT reason Detroit fell off.

Not getting Wade, Melo, or Bosh was an epic fail.

[indeedproceed]

Dumars to me has had two major missteps:

1) Darko

This is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT reason Detroit fell off.

Not getting Wade, Melo, or Bosh was an epic fail.

True that. But Joey D won a chip. You get a big get out of jail free card for that.

[moiso]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

Take a look here:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213PHO.HTM

The Suns are 19.5 points worse with him on the floor vs. off. I checked every other team, and among players who've played more than 30% of their team's minutes, there is no one worse in terms of net plus/minus. Not a single player.

If you dig into the numbers it looks even worse, mostly because Beasley makes his team worse offensively and flat out awful defensively.

                                     On court             Off court

Points scored/48              103                   107
Points allowed/48             118                   100
FG% alllowed                     55%                  48%
Offensive rebounding        28%                 33%
Defensive rebounding       67%                  73%


This surprised me. There is actually a case here that he is one of the worst players in the league, at least compared to other players with substantive court time.

That is impressive. I've been waiting for a while for someone, anyone to compile 82games's on/off court ratings into a sortable database.

But even then, I'd say a bit of it has to do with circumstance. Phoenix's starters were going to take a pounding. Beasley needed a tailored unit to succeed before. Now, on a rebuilding team (again), he's got even less of a chance.

Every team he has been on has been far worse when Beasley is actually in the game.  That's why I say he is the worst.  I realize he has skills, but he doesn't use them.  He doesn't guard anyone and takes bad shot after bad shot.  Someone like Jason Collins or Scalabrine doesn't hurt their teams nearly as much as Beasley when they are on the court.

[Galeto]

The bottom's really fallen out for Beasley this season.  He's always been sort of similar to Carmelo on offense in that he took a lot of two-point shots without making a high percentage of them but he lacked Carmelo's ability to get to the line.  This season he's still not getting to the line but he's also shooting a miserable percentage from the field.  His efficiency is horrible.

On the positive side, he's passing a lot more than before.  I always considered him a black hole who didn't have passing vision but I was wrong.  He's thrown some very nice passes and also unselfishly turned down wide open shots to pass to teammates who were even more wide open. 

The biggest difference to me between the Beasley who looked amazing in college and the one who has disappointed in the NBA comes down to free throws.  Some players just don't have the skillset to get into positions where they can draw fouls.  Beasley does.  He is very good at taking people off the dribble but he shoots to many pull up jumpers and when doesn't, he tries too hard to avoid contact at the rim.  I think the same mindset limited Glenn Robinson.  Taking all the hits necessarily to get to the line can't be easy on the body but if you don't want to the take the punishment, you're not giving all of yourself to the game. 

[Who]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

Take a look here:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213PHO.HTM

The Suns are 19.5 points worse with him on the floor vs. off. I checked every other team, and among players who've played more than 30% of their team's minutes, there is no one worse in terms of net plus/minus. Not a single player.

If you dig into the numbers it looks even worse, mostly because Beasley makes his team worse offensively and flat out awful defensively.

                                     On court             Off court

Points scored/48              103                   107
Points allowed/48             118                   100
FG% alllowed                     55%                  48%
Offensive rebounding        28%                 33%
Defensive rebounding       67%                  73%


This surprised me. There is actually a case here that he is one of the worst players in the league, at least compared to other players with substantive court time.

I agree, Beasley has been one of the most hurtful players in the league over the past couple of years (Minnesota, Phoenix).

He has been a net negative who has done substantial harm to his own team. The only other player that I can think off who has done similar damage to his own club over that time period is Andrea Bargnani.

A disgracefully poor defender at SF and a marginal offensive player.

That is not to say Beasley isn't a talented player. He is. He just needs some work. And to get the hell away from that starting SF position because he cannot defend that position if his life depended on it.

I don't think Beasley will ever be a high level star but I do think he can be one of those low level star types. A borderline star. Someone who can put up a lot of points on the board with reasonable efficiency and can be a passable defender/rebounder at the PF position.

But there's no question Beasley has been one of the most damaging players to his own team over the last couple of years (Minnesota, Phoenix). Nobody, except maybe Bargnani, has hurt their team more over that period.

[Who]

Dumars to me has had two major missteps:

1) Darko

2) resigning Hamilton and inexplicably Prince

Aside from that (letting Okur go, investing too much in Stuckey), his missteps have been tiny. Dumars has them back on the right path. Monroe is a blue chip prospect. Drummond was the type of risky move you need. Jerebko, Maxiell, Bynum are the types of guys smart GMs take on. Dumars already has a more promising young team with less than rebuild projects like Charlotte have tried to produce with better draft picks. I'd rather have Detroits roster than Washington or Sacramento's.

I don't consider Monroe a blue chip prospect. He'll be a good player but I think of him more as a third option type talent on a quality team. I feel like he is more of a stat-padder at this juncture in his career. I need to see more defensive quality and more range offensively.

I like the Drummond and Knight draft picks. Both were clearly projects but are both high risk / reward guys. High ceilings. I'd say both have more raw (unharnessed) talent than Monroe. Although I'm also pretty doubtful about Knight's chances of fulfilling his talent.

I think Sacramento (Cousins, Tyreke) and Washington (Wall) are in better situations roster wise because they have legitimate top tier talent in those players. I don't put Monroe at that level and Drummond/Knight are not enough of a sure-thing to be put up there. Still too raw.

[Who]

2) resigning Hamilton and inexplicably Prince

Aside from that (letting Okur go, investing too much in Stuckey), his missteps have been tiny. Dumars has them back on the right path. Monroe is a blue chip prospect. Drummond was the type of risky move you need. Jerebko, Maxiell, Bynum are the types of guys smart GMs take on.

The idea behind signing Rip Hamilton (and keeping Tayshaun and Sheed) was to rebuild around the Pistons remaining Champions and keeping their team's winning identity and defensive ethos rather than rebuilding from scratch.

It didn't work out but I don't have any real problem with the idea behind that. He had the cap flexibility required to make that type of plan work. Unfortunately, Dumars blew the money (B.Gordon, C.Villanueva) and the plan fell apart. Good idea, bad execution. 

Misspending Detroit's cap flexibility on Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva was a very bad mistake but Joe Dumars will learn from that (hopefully).

One of the main differences between a good GM and a bad GM is that a good GM can admit his mistakes and will move to correct them. Everybody makes mistakes. All GMs make mistakes. It's a given.

The difference is that when a bad GM (Bryan Colangelo) makes mistakes, he will will refuse to admit his error and will instead just keep compounding those errors (Bargnani over and over and over ... and over and over).

Joe Dumars has always been man enough to admit his mistakes (as did Steve Kerr in Phoenix) and moved to correct them. That is why, in addition to his previous success, I would still have a lot of faith in Joe Dumars turning things around for Detroit over time.

[Moranis]

Detroit = only 4-5 GMs in the league have been as successful as Joe Dumars over the last 10-15 years. Sure, he has made mistakes but he has done a bloody lot right too. He doesn't belong on this list.

Going after Phoenix and not Detroit? I mean Dumars did more with Detroit early on, but he has also done worse since.

Darko is almost unforgivable. It's close. When you pass up on Melo, Wade, and Bosh for Darko you blow the chance at history and a dynasty. He pulled the cord too early in Detroit. They were two wins away from beating Boston and going on against the Bynum-less Lakers with HCA in the Finals. If not for Boston they probably win the title.

The next year KG goes down. Now obviously no one could have predicted that but what if Dumars kept it together one more year? Instead of trading Billups, who went on to have a career year, for Iverson he could have added a MLE guy and went for it again. They likely make the finals and potentially beat LA with the way Billups was playing.

Dumars was WAY too impulsive. Iverson was a disaster and sent home. He then impulsively signs Ben Gordon after a great playoff series against the KG-less Celtics for 55 million. He has since had to trade a first round pick to dump that deal. Villaunueva is a disaster.

Dumars is VERY overrated and Detroit has been horrible ever since they traded Billups for Iverson.

  He let Okur leave so he'd have enough money to re-sign Ben Wallace, then got outbid for Wallace by Chicago. That was pretty bad as well.

Um, Okur left long before Ben Wallace left for Chicago.  He let Okur leave so he could re-sign Rasheed Wallace, which is exactly what he did.

[Who]

Unfortunately for Detroit, Bill Davidson died early in 2009 which was right after the Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva signings. Joe Dumars lost a great owner that day. One of the best owners in the NBA. And then Detroit had that messy ownership transition where Joe Dumars' hands were tied for two years. That really held Detroit back.

Joe Dumars wasn't allowed to make trades during that time (well he was extremely limited in what he was allowed take back to the point he couldn't make any deals). He was also limited in free agency. Dumars wasn't allowed to use the MLE or make sign and trades. For two years, his hands were tied. That was right after giving Ben Gordon and Charlie V those contracts.

Late last season, the Pistons finally completed the sale of the team and have a new owner in Tom Gores. It looks like Joe Dumars finally has the latitude to make decisions again as evidenced by his first trade in three years (yes, he didn't make a trade for three whole years due to that ownership situation) in moving out Ben Gordon. Moving on from that failed attempt and entering a new era. Building around youth this time. 

Early signs on Tom Gores are promising. He is saying the right things. He looks like a progressive owner. We'll have to wait and see but things look much improved there.

New owner in Tom Gores + one of the most successful GMs in the business in Joe Dumars ... does not equal a franchise in trouble. This is a team with sound leadership at the head of it's organization.

[Who]

Detroit = only 4-5 GMs in the league have been as successful as Joe Dumars over the last 10-15 years. Sure, he has made mistakes but he has done a bloody lot right too. He doesn't belong on this list.

Going after Phoenix and not Detroit? I mean Dumars did more with Detroit early on, but he has also done worse since.

Darko is almost unforgivable. It's close. When you pass up on Melo, Wade, and Bosh for Darko you blow the chance at history and a dynasty. He pulled the cord too early in Detroit. They were two wins away from beating Boston and going on against the Bynum-less Lakers with HCA in the Finals. If not for Boston they probably win the title.

The next year KG goes down. Now obviously no one could have predicted that but what if Dumars kept it together one more year? Instead of trading Billups, who went on to have a career year, for Iverson he could have added a MLE guy and went for it again. They likely make the finals and potentially beat LA with the way Billups was playing.

Dumars was WAY too impulsive. Iverson was a disaster and sent home. He then impulsively signs Ben Gordon after a great playoff series against the KG-less Celtics for 55 million. He has since had to trade a first round pick to dump that deal. Villaunueva is a disaster.

Dumars is VERY overrated and Detroit has been horrible ever since they traded Billups for Iverson.

  He let Okur leave so he'd have enough money to re-sign Ben Wallace, then got outbid for Wallace by Chicago. That was pretty bad as well.

Um, Okur left long before Ben Wallace left for Chicago.  He let Okur leave so he could re-sign Rasheed Wallace, which is exactly what he did.

It was Darko Milicic who Joe D traded to make way for Ben Wallace's contract extension.

In exchange for Darko, Dumars got back the draft pick used to acquire Rodney Stuckey.

I would've loved to have seen Darko stay there in Detroit. His shot-blocking and interior defense would've been very valuable in a post Ben Wallace world. Something Detroit lacked in those subsequent seasons. And playing alongside guys like Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups on a veteran team would've been perfect for Darko at that time in his career. The different path his career might have taken had that happened. Oh well. It was not to be.

[Snakehead]

Sad because I really liked Beasley's potential in college.

The thing is, I was hoping he would become Dennis Rodman-esque, while he has tried to play as if he is Carmello Anthony.  It's too bad.

[ssspence]

Dumars to me has had two major missteps:

1) Darko

2) resigning Hamilton and inexplicably Prince

Aside from that (letting Okur go, investing too much in Stuckey), his missteps have been tiny. Dumars has them back on the right path. Monroe is a blue chip prospect. Drummond was the type of risky move you need. Jerebko, Maxiell, Bynum are the types of guys smart GMs take on. Dumars already has a more promising young team with less than rebuild projects like Charlotte have tried to produce with better draft picks. I'd rather have Detroits roster than Washington or Sacramento's.

I don't consider Monroe a blue chip prospect. He'll be a good player but I think of him more as a third option type talent on a quality team. I feel like he is more of a stat-padder at this juncture in his career. I need to see more defensive quality and more range offensively.

I like the Drummond and Knight draft picks. Both were clearly projects but are both high risk / reward guys. High ceilings. I'd say both have more raw (unharnessed) talent than Monroe. Although I'm also pretty doubtful about Knight's chances of fulfilling his talent.

I think Sacramento (Cousins, Tyreke) and Washington (Wall) are in better situations roster wise because they have legitimate top tier talent in those players. I don't put Monroe at that level and Drummond/Knight are not enough of a sure-thing to be put up there. Still too raw.

I like Detroit's ability to return to true competitiveness faster than either Washington or Sactown IF -- and that's a big if -- Joe D can stop egregiously overpaying FAs (read: Charlie V, Ben Gordon, Stuckey, and the truly bizarre Tay Prince contract).

Ty Evans has been exposed. Not a 1, and can't shoot. That really hurts SAC's immediate future. The Bullets have some talent, but their insistence on trying to balance youth with vets continues to kill them. Stop trading for marginal players on bad contracts and just let the ones you have expire.

[ssspence]

Worst run?  Not sure.  But this team has taken a step back for like 7 consecutive years.  That's pretty hard to do. 

Beasley is one of the worst players in the league and plenty of people on celticsblog have wanted him year after year.  Better Phoenix than the Celtics.  He not only sucks, but he is a cancer.

u reachin badly wit da bolded Beasley can score from anywhere on da court nd when he's hot its problems. da only thing wit him is mentally nd his weed smokin i wouldnt call him anywhere near da worst player in da league

Take a look here:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213PHO.HTM

The Suns are 19.5 points worse with him on the floor vs. off. I checked every other team, and among players who've played more than 30% of their team's minutes, there is no one worse in terms of net plus/minus. Not a single player.

If you dig into the numbers it looks even worse, mostly because Beasley makes his team worse offensively and flat out awful defensively.

                                     On court             Off court

Points scored/48              103                   107
Points allowed/48             118                   100
FG% alllowed                     55%                  48%
Offensive rebounding        28%                 33%
Defensive rebounding       67%                  73%


This surprised me. There is actually a case here that he is one of the worst players in the league, at least compared to other players with substantive court time.

I agree, Beasley has been one of the most hurtful players in the league over the past couple of years (Minnesota, Phoenix).

He has been a net negative who has done substantial harm to his own team. The only other player that I can think off who has done similar damage to his own club over that time period is Andrea Bargnani.

A disgracefully poor defender at SF and a marginal offensive player.

That is not to say Beasley isn't a talented player. He is. He just needs some work. And to get the hell away from that starting SF position because he cannot defend that position if his life depended on it.

I don't think Beasley will ever be a high level star but I do think he can be one of those low level star types. A borderline star. Someone who can put up a lot of points on the board with reasonable efficiency and can be a passable defender/rebounder at the PF position.

But there's no question Beasley has been one of the most damaging players to his own team over the last couple of years (Minnesota, Phoenix). Nobody, except maybe Bargnani, has hurt their team more over that period.

I feel like folks talked the same way about Jamal Crawford for a long while. Difference is Crawford has a reputation for being reasonably bright and generally amiable. Beasley strikes me as a moron.

Again, basically, who cares. Would you rather have Gortat (and the potential of Beasley off the end of your bench) than Bass and Lee or Bass and Terry?

Phoenix is going to need to get both Gortat and Beasley out of their locker room, which means they're going to get lowball offers, at least to begin with. They also have no 2 true guards, so Lee could be a nice piece for them.

[kozlodoev]

I feel like folks talked the same way about Jamal Crawford for a long while.

He does? My first reaction when I hear Jamaal Crawford is "Ricky Davis v.2" (a.k.a a ball hog that never met a shot he didn't like).