Author Topic: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing  (Read 3868 times)

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Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 12:00:01 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Jeff Green, from all the way back to his Georgetown days was a Tin Man. He just needs one thing to make him a superstar. The heart. Or in other words: the desire, the need, the drive.

I'm just not sure that is something anyone can teach. You have it or you don't. His passiveness and lack of consistency to me show that he doesn't have it. He has the tools though. But even the greatest carpenter with the best tools in the world can not build a house if he doesn't have the desire to do so.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 12:47:16 AM »

Offline Kane3387

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Jeff Green, from all the way back to his Georgetown days was a Tin Man. He just needs one thing to make him a superstar. The heart. Or in other words: the desire, the need, the drive.

I'm just not sure that is something anyone can teach. You have it or you don't. His passiveness and lack of consistency to me show that he doesn't have it. He has the tools though. But even the greatest carpenter with the best tools in the world can not build a house if he doesn't have the desire to do so.

People questioned lebron on the same things.

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Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 12:48:44 AM »

Offline BIGTIME_CELTICS

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Jeff Green was not, is not, and will not be Paul Pierce. Supposedly, Jeff Green is a athletic wing who should know how to slash, shoot spot-ups and setting screens. He does not have the tool to be a star.
1. He is a straight line driver, who does not change speed and direction, only exploiting slower defenders, and he is not very quick on his first step either.

2. Not a reliable shooter yet, streaky at best

3. Can only post up smaller three and destroyed by post-up three/four

4. Does not box out on D, bad rebounder.

5. Court vision close to 0.

Not saying Pierce excels at all 5, but at least he is above average to excellent in those.

We label Green as an athletic wing, but the truth is he is not that athletic.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 01:26:53 AM »

Offline jdz101

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We label Green as an athletic wing, but the truth is he is not that athletic.

Im sure the other criticisms of Jeff are well-founded in some areas especially when compared to pierce, but Jeff is extremely athletic. That is his one elite attribute. His speed, leaping ability and ability to finish on both sides of the rim are very good.


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Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 04:10:32 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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We label Green as an athletic wing, but the truth is he is not that athletic.

Im sure the other criticisms of Jeff are well-founded in some areas especially when compared to pierce, but Jeff is extremely athletic. That is his one elite attribute. His speed, leaping ability and ability to finish on both sides of the rim are very good.

Just behind the likes of Gay and Iggy, who are elite SF athletes.

But the thing is he's 6'9. He's doing this stuff at legit 6'9. Put on more muscle this year too. That's why the stuff he does looks so surreal.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 11:22:27 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Jeff Green, from all the way back to his Georgetown days was a Tin Man. He just needs one thing to make him a superstar. The heart. Or in other words: the desire, the need, the drive.

I'm just not sure that is something anyone can teach. You have it or you don't. His passiveness and lack of consistency to me show that he doesn't have it. He has the tools though. But even the greatest carpenter with the best tools in the world can not build a house if he doesn't have the desire to do so.

People questioned lebron on the same things.
Are we really comparing Jeff Green to Lebron James now?

Lebron was always consistent in what he brought, game in and game out. He was never considered passive at any time. People questioned his performances on the largest stages but most of that was because they wanted him to go from regular superstar stats and performance to out of this world performance.

Jeff Green is a seriously passive player. He's a poor rebounder without the desire to go in and bang and get rebounds. He's a passable perimeter defender but has no toughness to guard people down low. And his whole career has been one of going on 2-3 week stretches where he looks great and then 2 week stretches where he disappears.

LeBron was never accused of any of those things. He was accused of not showing up on the largest stages at the highest possible performance level he could play at.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 12:59:40 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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2010 ECF, game 5. One of the most passive games from any of the newest crop of top-tier players.
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Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 01:02:17 PM »

Offline JSD

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Green has NEVER been able to be the man, and in Boston he has yet to even start. So I am just not convinced he doesn't have IT yet.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2012, 02:51:39 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Green has NEVER been able to be the man, and in Boston he has yet to even start. So I am just not convinced he doesn't have IT yet.
Could the reason for that be that the management and coaching staff, besides having been around Green for two years and seen how he is as a player and person have also scouted his entire career and determined he doesn't have IT?

Could it be the reason he isn't starting and getting the chance to be THE MAN is because Doc and Danny have determined he doesn't have what it takes to be the man?

I sure think that is the case, myself.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2012, 03:01:15 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Green has NEVER been able to be the man, and in Boston he has yet to even start. So I am just not convinced he doesn't have IT yet.
Could the reason for that be that the management and coaching staff, besides having been around Green for two years and seen how he is as a player and person have also scouted his entire career and determined he doesn't have IT?

Could it be the reason he isn't starting and getting the chance to be THE MAN is because Doc and Danny have determined he doesn't have what it takes to be the man?

I sure think that is the case, myself.

Or could the reason be that Pierce is our captain, future hall of famer, is starting and we don't have any other 3 on the roster other than a rookie? Could that be a reason also why he's not starting, particularly considering the logjam we have of SGs?

I'm not going to speculate about this random "be the man" discussion you guys have been going on, but there's a clear reason why Green is not starting, and it majorly has to do because of our current roster make-up is not pertinent to starting our only SFs of caliber on the team at the same time.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2012, 03:12:31 PM »

Offline blink

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JG has show flashes of being a really good player.  But why is anyone comparing him to PP?  Other than playing the 3 position for us, they are completely different players.  The expectations on JG from this board are way too high.  I think best case for us when PP either retires, or starts coming off the bench, is that JG will be able to step in and be a good / nice complimentary starter.  If we want to contend for championships after the KG/PP era, there will need to be more superstar power than RR/JG/Sully/AB.

But really where did the idea come from that he was our next superstar?  With some more maturity, and a bigger role he may develop a bit more alpha dog type mentality but I don't see him becoming an all-star player.  He doesn't seem to have the type of personality to take over a game.  He is what he is, a really good complimentary player.  Why do  we need more from him than that?


Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 04:27:06 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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Love The Truth, but mentoring a younger player has never been his style.  He'll do it as a member of a group - like the Big 3 with Rondo and Perk - but I don't think Pierce is secure enough to mentor a young, talented player who may make him obsolete (MAY, mind you) on a team in which he is The Captain.

You know who is secure enough?  KG!

KG will mentor anyone willing to listen.  He'll even bark at guys that tune him out.  KG is probably the most secure player in the league.

I think Pierce still has a chip on his shoulder from being selected #10 when he was a top-3 talent.  And, for being the All Star on so many crappy teams.  And, for not truly becoming a Hall of Fame-worthy player until two other Hall of Famers joined his team.

I wish Pierce would mentor Green (and Joseph), but I don't think he will in the way we all want him to.  He never really tried to mentor Tony Allen, Bill Walker, Leon Powe, Gerald Green, or Ryan Gomes.

I do applaud Pierce for his work in the community and with children.  He goes way out of his way with his charities and fitness programs.

On the court, though, he's always been a little more selfish than KG.

As long as KG is in green, we'll have our resident mentor, and he'll get on everybody.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 04:52:38 PM »

Offline ben

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After Jeffs great preseason run, I am really shocked Pierce and Jeff were not paired earlier as our main GUARDS(no green at the 4 funny business), leaving rondo at the point.  This idea makes sooo much sense to me and I am baffled why Doc doesn't see this. 

Pierce and Green are playing together a little more now, and it shows that Rondo, Pierce, Green is a dominant guard lineup.  Terry and Lee are good, but Pierce and green at the guard spots is what our team needs for wins at this time.  Pierce and green need to start. 

When Bradley comes back, he can be the first sub for Pierce at 2, and then pierce can come back in for green later.  Bradley can move to point (awesome pressure D at point) as terry/lee come in for the 2 spot. 

Bradley can eventually start at the 2 and we can bring green off the bench as season progresses down the line, who knows what will happen. 

But Green and Pierce need to play together as GUARDS.  We are so good when this happens. 

Yep, this is my "I wish I was a coach" post and if I was a player i would be offended reading this ( i hope they don't ).  But I coached middleschool bball and we won the champ.  and it is pretty simple, best lineups on court as long as possible. 


Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 05:07:54 PM »

Offline ben

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JG has show flashes of being a really good player.  But why is anyone comparing him to PP?  Other than playing the 3 position for us, they are completely different players.  The expectations on JG from this board are way too high.  I think best case for us when PP either retires, or starts coming off the bench, is that JG will be able to step in and be a good / nice complimentary starter.  If we want to contend for championships after the KG/PP era, there will need to be more superstar power than RR/JG/Sully/AB.

But really where did the idea come from that he was our next superstar?  With some more maturity, and a bigger role he may develop a bit more alpha dog type mentality but I don't see him becoming an all-star player.  He doesn't seem to have the type of personality to take over a game.  He is what he is, a really good complimentary player.  Why do  we need more from him than that?

don't put a ceiling on anyone.

Re: Pierce, it is time to take Jeff Green under your wing
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 05:18:22 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Jeff Green, from all the way back to his Georgetown days was a Tin Man. He just needs one thing to make him a superstar. The heart. Or in other words: the desire, the need, the drive.

I'm just not sure that is something anyone can teach. You have it or you don't. His passiveness and lack of consistency to me show that he doesn't have it. He has the tools though. But even the greatest carpenter with the best tools in the world can not build a house if he doesn't have the desire to do so.

That is a purely subjective opinion, reflecting your take on what you have perceived of Jeff Green.  And that's fair - you are entitled to it.

But I'm going to respectfully disagree.  I have been following Jeff Green's career all the way back to his G-Town days and I just see him completely differently than what you describe here.

I'm not going to assert that Green is this way or that way, because (as I've said many times) I am not a big believer in armchair psychoanalyzing.

But observationally, I do think if you watched him back in Georgetown, I find it hard to believe you would think he 'had no heart'.  He was the captain (literally), the leader and the killer, clutch player for that Hoyas team.  He made many, big time shots in big games.  Man - that win over vanderbilt in the tournament?  That was pure ice.

Sticking to basketball, I do know that Green spent the first 4 years of his career forced to play second/third fiddle and out of position - yet was always lauded by teammates and coaches for his locker-room leadership.

There really was not much he could do to break out of the 'third wheel' trap.  Would we think more highly of him if he had griped about his utilization?  Would that have been showing more 'fire'?  Hard to say.  I try to stick to what goes on on the court.

In OKC, Green's role on offense boiled down to setting picks and shooting clock-expiring 3s and otherwise watching Westbrook and Durant take a bazillion shots.

Consider:  In his last season in OKC, Green took 30% of his shots from 3PT land and only 28% of his shots at the rim (Almost always on fast-breaks.  Rarely in half-court plays).  Now, Green is a decent 3PT shooter, but that is NOT what you want him to be doing, with his speed and athleticism.  You want him at the rim.  In OKC, the highest percentage of his shots at the rim he ever took was 33.8% in his rookie year.  It declined after that.

In Doc's system, so far this year, he's only taking about 21% of his shots from 3PT range and 35% at the rim.

When he first came here, he barely had time to try to fit in in a tough situation (Perkins trade) - though he did at least play credibly once we got to the playoffs and against Miami that year.   I don't think we could expect him to break free of the patterns of deferral that had been beaten into him for 5 years in just those few weeks - especially when joining a team loaded with 3 future HoF players, plus Rondo - in other words loaded with guys way up on the pecking order ahead of him.  So he wasn't going to suddenly be the alpha dog.  Interestingly though, right off the bat, his 'at rim' share of his shots went up to 39% during that period.

And then he missed an entire year due to heart surgery.

I think expecting him to suddenly come back at 100% AND to have reverted to the alpha dog role he had in college (after 4 years of being conditioned to NOT be the alpha dog) was unrealistic.   It takes time to (a) get fully back into NBA condition and (b) un-learn deference developed over several years of playing in a system that under-utlized him.

But to suggest that he 'just doesn't have it in him'?  I don't claim to be a psychologist or a mind-reader, but the way he played for the Hoyas in '06 & '07 did not strike me as a someone who has no 'heart'.  He _was_ the heart of that team.  He's still that guy.

Anyway, we know he has a heart.  The doctors worked on it last season.
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