Author Topic: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic  (Read 3272 times)

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Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 12:54:57 PM »

Offline LB3533

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What is the criteria for the player rankings?

Career accomplishments?

Pure basketball skills?

Freak athleticism?

I really don't think you can compare players from different eras because the game is different.

The 3 point line changes stats.

The defensive shift and slow down game changes game style/tempo and impact statistics as well.

Can't forget team expansion and (star) player dilution either.

I have my own rankings, but they differ completely because of criteria and context.

For example: Modern Era is defined as pre-ABA merger

Bill Russell is #1 Ranked (when you factor pre-modern era and including career accomplishments)

And, or

Wilt Chamberlain is #1 Ranked (pre-modern era, career accomplishments not heavily weighted)


I have Larry Bird as #1 in the modern era just based on pure basketball-ness.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 12:55:27 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)

Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic

Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list.  Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.

And SLAM Magazine had Larry #9 and Kobe #10 in the SLAM 500 (Feb 2011).  Just a couple of more 1st Team All-NBA selections for Kobe since.  Not enough to get a big jump here I don't think.

by the way, I do NOT endorse SLAM magazine.   ;)

IMHO, top 5 all time (in no particular order) are
Russell, Wilt, MJ, Bird, Magic.  period.  anyone deviating from that loses any credibility with me.  I could understand making an argument for the big O ahead of Magic but I wouldn't buy into it.

Bird at #9 -- pure ignorance.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2012, 12:59:09 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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I think a good way to approach is to suppose you are starting a team from scratch. What player would rather start a team with?

In the modern era it has to be MJ first, then I think you would see far more people picking Kareem, Bird and Magic than Kobe. I think Kobe would be on par with Shaq, Duncan, and Olajuwon. Not sure where Lebron fits, it's too early to tell.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2012, 01:18:35 PM »

Online BballTim

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But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.

  I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.

As far as what?

But anyways, longevity and results have to matter. Kobe has 5 titles, 3 of which he was the best player on the floor, and is 6th all time in points scored. While I would state that both Magic and Larry had higher 'peaks', Kobe's career matches up nicely.

  Higher 'peaks' = significantly better for all of the healthy years in their primes. Kobe's had a longer career, I agree, but Bird and Magic had enough healthy years and accomplished enough in those years to demonstrate that they were clearly better players than Kobe.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2012, 01:20:20 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)

Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic

Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list.  Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.

And SLAM Magazine had Larry #9 and Kobe #10 in the SLAM 500 (Feb 2011).  Just a couple of more 1st Team All-NBA selections for Kobe since.  Not enough to get a big jump here I don't think.

by the way, I do NOT endorse SLAM magazine.   ;)

IMHO, top 5 all time (in no particular order) are
Russell, Wilt, MJ, Bird, Magic.  period.  anyone deviating from that loses any credibility with me.  I could understand making an argument for the big O ahead of Magic but I wouldn't buy into it.

Bird at #9 -- pure ignorance.

I agree 100percent. Kobe is an all time great but in no way shape or form is he in these guys leagues. He got to where he is by jacking up a TON of shots and missing a TON of them, FACT.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2012, 01:33:29 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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The media is obsessed with whatever is NEW.

Kobe just joined an elite club, and he still sells jerseys, so the media labels him whatever they want in order to continue writing/selling stories.

They can't sell stories about Bird and Magic and Russell.  They're old and retired.

At least this Kobe nonsense dragged the media away from "LeBron is the best player ever" for one week.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2012, 01:38:17 PM »

Offline Chelm

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Currently, the ELO rankings at b-r.com have Bryant at 276th, behind players such as Metta World Peace and Rony Seikaly.
It also has Jason Kidd above Magic.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2012, 02:08:36 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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If Bird had played alongside Shaq I'm fairly certain they would've won more titles than Kobe did with Shaq.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2012, 02:09:36 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I think a good way to approach is to suppose you are starting a team from scratch. What player would rather start a team with?

In the modern era it has to be MJ first, then I think you would see far more people picking Kareem, Bird and Magic than Kobe. I think Kobe would be on par with Shaq, Duncan, and Olajuwon. Not sure where Lebron fits, it's too early to tell.
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=56175.0Here was the historical draft, which includes only players entering the league in the lottery era (1985 or later).  You only had to use one season so it wasn't like you were picking careers so keep that in mind.  I still think it is probably a pretty decent exercise to see where people rate.  Some of the spots were skipped, but the picks in order were

Shaq
KG
Duncan
Lebron
Robinson
Dwight
Malone
Dirk
Kobe
Wade
Pippen
Ewing
Payton
Durant
Mutombo

And again you only use one year and not career, but I still think it gives a decent take on who you would take when starting a team and why you would take them.
2014 Pick 2 Draft 18th pick of 20
Sacramento Kings
Starters - Isaiah Thomas, Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Dirk Nowitzki, Demarcus Cousins
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Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2012, 02:13:44 PM »

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Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar disagrees with this statement.

Sure the '87 and '88 rings were all Magic.

But '80, '82, and '85 you can argue it was Kareem's team.  (Magic get's credit for that 1 game in the '80 Finals where he played Center and Kareem was out, but Kareem averaged 32ppg/12rpg/4bpg/3apg/1spg in the playoffs that year and was league MVP).

Pretty similar to Kobe I think (as in first 3 rings it's Shaq team - although Kobe was clearly on his way to taking over, next 2 rings it was Kobe's team. 3 Finals MVP's for Magic to 2 for Kobe isn't that different).  Just saying the Lakers were Kareem's team for the first half of the 80's.
I think it was only the first year or two that Kareem was better than Magic and frankly I think that was only because Magic got hurt in that second season. Kareem was still a terrific player but for my money Magic was better and more important to LA in those subsequent seasons.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2012, 02:17:41 PM »

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My top five would be = Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Not sure who my next five would be. Probably Wilt, Oscar, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan.

I would have Kobe in consideration for the next five after that. Along with guys like Moses Malone. Jerry West. Maybe Kevin Garnett.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2012, 02:21:56 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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I don't see how you can have Kobe over Hakeem. Hakeem, while fasting for Ramadan, destroyed David Robinson, reigning MVP, and Robinson said it was the best game he had ever seen. The dream mentored Kobe. The dream is better, considerably.
Hakeem is one of my favorite players of all time and in a way is a 7 foot version of kobe- absurdly fundamentally sound scorer with similar game (i know Hakeem taught Kobe moves). I dunno, either one could be better.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2012, 02:25:58 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)

Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic

Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list.  Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.
Stephen A Smith and Magic were the main guys I was thinking of with them annointing him "just behind Jordan". There were a few others too that i cant remember.

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2012, 02:28:17 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe.  ::) 8) .

That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic
Man this is the other thing that i was disgusted by. Every basketball analyst fails to mention Larry when mentioning how Jordan was surpassing Magic. Like that was his only obstacle to being the best in the game. Are you kidding me? The Celtics are the most continually disrespected franchise in the league.

I mean on first take they were actually saying things like "Larry was a bad boy". Like that even needs saying? What are these guys smoking?

Every time the media compares someone to Larry Bird, hes white. Doesnt matter what his game is like, if he can shoot and hes white, hes like Larry Bird. Dirk can shoot? Oh hes like larry Bird. Kevin Love can shoot? Oh hes like Larry Bird. Even if thats the only part of their game that resembles Larry. They cant bear to compare a black player to Larry. I have though for a long time that Durant is the most like Larry since Larry and even he thinks it (he still has to be a way better defender, passer, and even rebounder). But the media doesnt feel comfortable comparing a black player to a white player.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 02:39:12 PM by ianboyextreme »

Re: The media considers Kobe better than Larry and Magic
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2012, 02:43:59 PM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe.  ::) 8) .

That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic
Lol, yeah he said, "why not George Gervin?". Hmm, yeah why doesnt he want to be like a one dimensional scorer who never won a championship rather than a guy who did every thing that could ever be done on a basketball court better than almost everyone else who won several championships?

Not anything against Gervin, he was big time great, but between Larry and Gervin?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 03:13:22 PM by ianboyextreme »

 

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