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[PhoSita]

But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.

  I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.

People get so caught up in anointing Kobe the successor to MJ that they forget that Kobe doesn't do nearly as many things to help his team win as MJ did, or a number of other players who have been among the best to ever play the game.

MJ, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem -- all did a lot more than just take a bunch of shots.  And I'd take any of them in their prime over Kobe in his prime.

[Lightskinsmurf]

But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.

  I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.

People get so caught up in anointing Kobe the successor to MJ that they forget that Kobe doesn't do nearly as many things to help his team win as MJ did, or a number of other players who have been among the best to ever play the game.

MJ, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem -- all did a lot more than just take a bunch of shots.  And I'd take any of them in their prime over Kobe in his prime.

Same here

[ACF]

If by "media" you mean



...you should all just let it go 



(And yes, I post links to ESPN stuff too - luckily they don't do all bad articles every day.)

[Moranis]

Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)

Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic

Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list.  Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.

[OsirusCeltics]

He's one of the greatest scorers that ever lived, I hate myself for saying this (Since I can't stand Kobe)

But as far as every other attribute in a basketball player, he barely makes the top 30

To call him the greatest NBA player is what makes him overrated

[Edgar]

he has the BIGGEST head ever in the NBA

LeBron?

[slamtheking]

one of the greatest scorers for sure.  very good defender when he's motivated.  not much else.  ball hog, passes only when he has to, lousy teammate. 

I'd take a lot of players in their prime over him if I was drafting a team from all the players ever.

He's nowhere close to Bird or Magic.  Hell, he's not even close to being the best Laker ever.  He wouldn't crack the starting Laker guard rotation which to me would be Magic and West.

[Cman]

All these people keep mentioning how Kobe is "right up there" with Michael. They're wrong. Kobe is a great player and a top 10 player all time (not top 5), but he simply is not better thank Larry and Magic.

Agreed 100%.

[scaryjerry]

I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe.  .

That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic

[Celtics18]

Jordan
Magic
Bird
O'Neal
James
Olajouwan
Garnett
Duncan
Bryant
K. Malone

That's my list (off the top of my head) of the greatest players I've seen play in their prime (since the early '80)s.  I have Bryant towards the bottom of the top ten of "modern" players.

Once you start adding in the old timers, Kobe would be lucky to make the top 20. 

There's no shame in that.  There have been a lot of extraordinary basketball players to play in the NBA.  Bryant's one of them.

[MBunge]

I'm not a big stats guy but in this case, they're as clear as can be.  Not only are Jordan's overall stats significantly better than Kobe's, but I believe his best seasons in every category are significantly better than the equivalent for Kobe.

If you're talking all time great scorers, Kobe would have to rank among the best.  But his history of being such a bad teammate and team leader keeps him out of the best overall discussion all by itself.

Mike

[2short]

one of the greatest scorers for sure.  very good defender when he's motivated.  not much else.  ball hog, passes only when he has to, lousy teammate. 

I'd take a lot of players in their prime over him if I was drafting a team from all the players ever.

He's nowhere close to Bird or Magic.  Hell, he's not even close to being the best Laker ever.  He wouldn't crack the starting Laker guard rotation which to me would be Magic and West.

that says it all right there

[bdm860]

Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar disagrees with this statement.

Sure the '87 and '88 rings were all Magic.

But '80, '82, and '85 you can argue it was Kareem's team.  (Magic get's credit for that 1 game in the '80 Finals where he played Center and Kareem was out, but Kareem averaged 32ppg/12rpg/4bpg/3apg/1spg in the playoffs that year and was league MVP).

Pretty similar to Kobe I think (as in first 3 rings it's Shaq team - although Kobe was clearly on his way to taking over, next 2 rings it was Kobe's team. 3 Finals MVP's for Magic to 2 for Kobe isn't that different).  Just saying the Lakers were Kareem's team for the first half of the 80's.

[IndeedProceed]

But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.

  I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.

As far as what?

But anyways, longevity and results have to matter. Kobe has 5 titles, 3 of which he was the best player on the floor, and is 6th all time in points scored. While I would state that both Magic and Larry had higher 'peaks', Kobe's career matches up nicely.

[bdm860]

Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)

Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic

Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list.  Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html

Well Bill Simmons had Magic #4, Larry #5, and Kobe #8 in his Book of Basketball (Oct 2009).  Kobe's added a ring and 3 more 1st Team All-NBA since.  I could see Kobe moving up a few notches in Simmons list now.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

And SLAM Magazine had Larry #9 and Kobe #10 in the SLAM 500 (Feb 2011).  Just a couple of more 1st Team All-NBA selections for Kobe since.  Not enough to get a big jump here I don't think.

Of course all this is subjective (and these lists are a couple of years old), but it's hard to judge active players.  And a lot of people makes these statements loosely and could probably list 10 guys they'd consider Top 5 all time. 

Unfortunately I think if the Lakers get another title or two (possible with the team on paper, not by looking at them now), a lot of the media will have him in that Top 5 all time spot a little above Bird, probably flip flopping with Magic from list to list.  If his career ended today, he's still beneath them IMO, if he has a couple of more good years I can see a lot of the media having him above them.