Author Topic: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?  (Read 9569 times)

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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2012, 06:14:11 PM »

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I said this in another thread... I think this is a good place for it, though.


Let me ask the "SULLY IS UNTOUCHABLE!" crowd a serious question. 

Sully probably had late lotto talent, but slipped to #21.  Fine, let's pretend he was a legit late lotto pick.  At the moment he's #11 in Efficiency amongst rookies... behind the likes of Alexey Shved  and Kyle Singler.  That's nice.

Take off the homer goggles for a second.  Meyers Leonard is the same age, is over 7 feet tall, was picked 10 spots higher than Sully (legit lotto pick), probably has more potential, and is putting up the same type of stats in the same type of minutes. 

Would you rather have Meyers Leonard or Pau/Big Al/Josh Smith/etc?

I'm curious if people are that attached to Sully simply because he's played 20 games as a Celtic and they are emotionally invested... or if they'd legitimately rather have a late lotto pick with perceived potential who averages 5 points/5 boards (Leonard)... over a guy who can contribute 20 and 10 immediately.

So who would consider Meyers Leonard untouchable?  Serious question.

   Sully's ceiling is extremely high despite the fact that he's not athletic.  Similar to athleticism, size and health setting your physical ceiling, IQ, attitude and work ethic set your mental ceiling.  Andre Miller, Paul Pierce, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Boris Diaw, Elton Brand, Glen Davis etc. are guys who achieved way more than their physical profiles predicted thanks to their work ethic/IQ/attitude. 
   Sullinger's skill level is unbelievable for a 20 year old.  How many 20 year olds shoot like this kid?  make free throws like him?  Rebound like him?  Pass like him?  understand defensive rotations like him?  know and accept their roles on offense like him?  He doesn't get frustrated when the officials rob him.  He doesn't care if he starts or comes off the bench.  He works with Rondo every day after practice.  He does everything KG tells him to do.  Doc already trusts him more than any rookie EVER including Rondo. 
   In the future, he will develop a post game, become a much better defender, improve his range and shooting, improve his physique etc. his ceiling is incredibly high and he has given us NO REASON to doubt that he won't reach it. 
   I don't believe any player is untouchable, but the price for Bradley and Sullinger are very, very high.  I wouldn't trade both of them together unless it nets us a player at least in the MVP conversation.

TP for Yogi.
I share a similar sentiment for Sully. I mean I'd give him up to get a game changer like Josh Smith, Verajao or Gortat-but I wouldn't give up much more.
His combination of skill, size, intelligence on the court and work ethic are extremely rare. He's a coaches son with  a nose for the ball and I can't remember seeing a Celtics rookie with rebounding ability and hunger like him for a while. I think if he dropped another 20 pounds he'd be starting by next season.

I don't think he's untouchable, but he's dumping over most rookies. Larbrd33 mentioned Meyers Leonard, but Sully's ceiling has surely got to be considered much higher than Leonards? I mean Leonards getting minutes and doing alright but in 5 years time Sully is much more likely to be an all star because of the assetts he brings as mentioned earlier.

I think we may be able to get Josh Smith by moving Sully and Bradley and I'd have to think veeeerrryyy long and hard to say no to that.
Even Cleveland rebuilding and getting something for Verajao. We have two lottery/borderline lottery level talent kids in Sully/Bradley and we'll probably have to give up one to get a game changing big man.
At the end of the day, we can't get too caught up in the future, because we only have KG and Pierce for 2, maybe 3 years and if we need to move a young stud to get an immediate contributor to banner 18 Danny will and must pull the trigger.
Gonna be bitter sweet though.
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2012, 07:13:11 PM »

Offline albert

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Didn't read through the rest of the posts but Roy, I find it interesting that you don't see the obviousness of it given you knowledge of our cap situation. All you have to do is compare contracts and age. We have Sully locked up for 3 years on a very affordable rookie contract. Doesn't make sense to trade for Varejao given how our roster has been making huge strides together on the court.

Getting a "steal" in the draft doesn't only mean getting a player with great potential but it also means having that player locked up at a very affordable rate for a good amount of time. To trade for someone with his equivalent "value" on the court, you'd be gutting some of the team just for the sake of matching numbers. It doesn't make him untradeable in my eyes, but it does make him a very good commodity for a better trade in the future.
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2012, 07:24:24 PM »

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I said this in another thread... I think this is a good place for it, though.


Let me ask the "SULLY IS UNTOUCHABLE!" crowd a serious question. 

Sully probably had late lotto talent, but slipped to #21.  Fine, let's pretend he was a legit late lotto pick.  At the moment he's #11 in Efficiency amongst rookies... behind the likes of Alexey Shved  and Kyle Singler.  That's nice.

Take off the homer goggles for a second.  Meyers Leonard is the same age, is over 7 feet tall, was picked 10 spots higher than Sully (legit lotto pick), probably has more potential, and is putting up the same type of stats in the same type of minutes. 

Would you rather have Meyers Leonard or Pau/Big Al/Josh Smith/etc?

I'm curious if people are that attached to Sully simply because he's played 20 games as a Celtic and they are emotionally invested... or if they'd legitimately rather have a late lotto pick with perceived potential who averages 5 points/5 boards (Leonard)... over a guy who can contribute 20 and 10 immediately.

So who would consider Meyers Leonard untouchable?  Serious question.

   Sully's ceiling is extremely high despite the fact that he's not athletic.  Similar to athleticism, size and health setting your physical ceiling, IQ, attitude and work ethic set your mental ceiling.  Andre Miller, Paul Pierce, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Boris Diaw, Elton Brand, Glen Davis etc. are guys who achieved way more than their physical profiles predicted thanks to their work ethic/IQ/attitude. 
   Sullinger's skill level is unbelievable for a 20 year old.  How many 20 year olds shoot like this kid?  make free throws like him?  Rebound like him?  Pass like him?  understand defensive rotations like him?  know and accept their roles on offense like him?  He doesn't get frustrated when the officials rob him.  He doesn't care if he starts or comes off the bench.  He works with Rondo every day after practice.  He does everything KG tells him to do.  Doc already trusts him more than any rookie EVER including Rondo. 
   In the future, he will develop a post game, become a much better defender, improve his range and shooting, improve his physique etc. his ceiling is incredibly high and he has given us NO REASON to doubt that he won't reach it. 
   I don't believe any player is untouchable, but the price for Bradley and Sullinger are very, very high.  I wouldn't trade both of them together unless it nets us a player at least in the MVP conversation.
Lol.  Wow.  We'd be lucky to get Gortat for a package including Sully, Melo and multiple first rounders... and you're talkin "MVP".

So again... you'd refuse to give up Meyers Leonard for anything less than an MVP candidate.  Holy crap.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2012, 07:29:06 PM »

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Larbrd33 mentioned Meyers Leonard, but Sully's ceiling has surely got to be considered much higher than Leonards?

Curious why you think that.  Is it simply because you've watched Sully for 20 games and his 5 points 5 rebounds per game is more impressive than Meyers Leonard's 5 points and 5 rebounds per game?  I have a hard time calling that anything other than total homerism. 

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2012, 08:06:40 PM »

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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2012, 08:32:54 PM »

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Larbrd33 mentioned Meyers Leonard, but Sully's ceiling has surely got to be considered much higher than Leonards?

Curious why you think that.  Is it simply because you've watched Sully for 20 games and his 5 points 5 rebounds per game is more impressive than Meyers Leonard's 5 points and 5 rebounds per game?  I have a hard time calling that anything other than total homerism.

I think both of those guys have great futures and it would be silly to trade either of them.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #96 on: December 09, 2012, 09:13:55 PM »

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Larbrd33 mentioned Meyers Leonard, but Sully's ceiling has surely got to be considered much higher than Leonards?

Curious why you think that.  Is it simply because you've watched Sully for 20 games and his 5 points 5 rebounds per game is more impressive than Meyers Leonard's 5 points and 5 rebounds per game?  I have a hard time calling that anything other than total homerism.

Well you could argue that Sullinger has been slotted into a championship contending squad and achieved better stats in the same minutes, grasping a much more difficult defensive scheme and has dramatically improved since game one. Leonard is doing okay as well out there with a team of bums, racing towards mediocrity/the lottery and the best he's putting up is 5 ppg and 3.5 rpg. 

Not sure if you've read the earlier posts in this discussion but if you're looking for a reason as to why Sully's ceiling might be higher after 20 games, go up a few posts and read what Yogi wrote.
Here it is again:
Yogi
Quote
Sully's ceiling is extremely high despite the fact that he's not athletic.  Similar to athleticism, size and health setting your physical ceiling, IQ, attitude and work ethic set your mental ceiling.  Andre Miller, Paul Pierce, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Boris Diaw, Elton Brand, Glen Davis etc. are guys who achieved way more than their physical profiles predicted thanks to their work ethic/IQ/attitude. 
   Sullinger's skill level is unbelievable for a 20 year old.  How many 20 year olds shoot like this kid?  make free throws like him?  Rebound like him?  Pass like him?  understand defensive rotations like him?  know and accept their roles on offense like him?  He doesn't get frustrated when the officials rob him.  He doesn't care if he starts or comes off the bench.  He works with Rondo every day after practice.  He does everything KG tells him to do.  Doc already trusts him more than any rookie EVER including Rondo. 
   In the future, he will develop a post game, become a much better defender, improve his range and shooting, improve his physique etc. his ceiling is incredibly high and he has given us NO REASON to doubt that he won't reach it. 

Do Leonards physical assets and attitude give him a shot at being a stud? Of course.
As you said, it's only been 20 games, but you've seen Leonard play, probably from watching Lillard like myself. So who would you take to build a championship team with.
Sully or Leonard?
And who is more likely to become an All Star?

I smell an anti-homer response coming, and I've said numerous times that I'd move Sully for a game changing big. But I do understand why some 'homers' worry about moving him when he has more going for him than 70% of those guys picked in front of him in the draft.
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #97 on: December 09, 2012, 09:16:42 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Where does this notion that Doc Rivers hates rookies come from?  I mean seriously, Doc Rivers has consistently played rookies since he arrived here.  He doesn't play rookies that aren't ready to play, but if the rookie shows he can contribute he will play.

2004-05 - Won Atlantic
Allen - 16.4
Jefferson - 14.8
West - 13

05-06 - Crappy Team
Gomes - 22.6
Greene - 15.4
Green - 11.7

06-07 - Crappy Team
Rondo - 23.5
Powe - 11.4
Ray - 15.1 (about half the games)
Pinkney - 16.7 (only 6 games)

07-08 - NBA Champs
Davis - 13.6 (8.1 in the playoffs)
Pruitt - 6.3 (only 15 games)

08-09 - ECF Semis
Walker - 7.4 (29 games)
Giddens -  1.3 (6 games)

09-10 - NBA Finals
Hudson - 4.4 (16 games)
Lafayette - 22 (1 game)
Landry - 3 (1 game - also played 17 games for NY)

10-11 - ECF Semis
Bradley - 5.2 (only healthy about half)
Erden - 14.4 (about half)
Harangody - 8.6 (28 games)
Johnson - 8 (4 games - mid season injury add)

11-12 - ECF Finals
Stiemsma - 13.9 (most when healthy)
Johnson - 8.3 (about a third)
Moore - 8.7 (about half)


In other words, guys who were solid NBA level players got plenty of time as rookies.  Guys that were not, did not.  Pretty much what you would hope and expect your coach to do.  You certainly could question how much development Doc does with young guys, but if they can play as rookies he doesn't hesitate to play them.
tp but i think many of us have tried in vain to explain over and over that
"doc hates rookies" just isn't true, notice the guys who got minutes are nba players most the other guys aren't even in the league anymore
but don't worry in 2 seconds another thread will have a line doc won't play rookies

thanks for the stats moranis, and i agree with 2short. i posted similar stats about rookies a number of times. but it seems no one cares to read the stats. it is simply easier to continue the chat about doc and rookies.

doc plays rookies when they are good enough to play a role.
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2012, 04:08:48 PM »

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Larbrd33 mentioned Meyers Leonard, but Sully's ceiling has surely got to be considered much higher than Leonards?

Curious why you think that.  Is it simply because you've watched Sully for 20 games and his 5 points 5 rebounds per game is more impressive than Meyers Leonard's 5 points and 5 rebounds per game?  I have a hard time calling that anything other than total homerism.

Well you could argue that Sullinger has been slotted into a championship contending squad and achieved better stats in the same minutes, grasping a much more difficult defensive scheme and has dramatically improved since game one. Leonard is doing okay as well out there with a team of bums, racing towards mediocrity/the lottery and the best he's putting up is 5 ppg and 3.5 rpg. 

Not sure if you've read the earlier posts in this discussion but if you're looking for a reason as to why Sully's ceiling might be higher after 20 games, go up a few posts and read what Yogi wrote.
Here it is again:
Yogi
Quote
Sully's ceiling is extremely high despite the fact that he's not athletic.  Similar to athleticism, size and health setting your physical ceiling, IQ, attitude and work ethic set your mental ceiling.  Andre Miller, Paul Pierce, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Boris Diaw, Elton Brand, Glen Davis etc. are guys who achieved way more than their physical profiles predicted thanks to their work ethic/IQ/attitude. 
   Sullinger's skill level is unbelievable for a 20 year old.  How many 20 year olds shoot like this kid?  make free throws like him?  Rebound like him?  Pass like him?  understand defensive rotations like him?  know and accept their roles on offense like him?  He doesn't get frustrated when the officials rob him.  He doesn't care if he starts or comes off the bench.  He works with Rondo every day after practice.  He does everything KG tells him to do.  Doc already trusts him more than any rookie EVER including Rondo. 
   In the future, he will develop a post game, become a much better defender, improve his range and shooting, improve his physique etc. his ceiling is incredibly high and he has given us NO REASON to doubt that he won't reach it. 

Do Leonards physical assets and attitude give him a shot at being a stud? Of course.
As you said, it's only been 20 games, but you've seen Leonard play, probably from watching Lillard like myself. So who would you take to build a championship team with.
Sully or Leonard?
And who is more likely to become an All Star?

I smell an anti-homer response coming, and I've said numerous times that I'd move Sully for a game changing big. But I do understand why some 'homers' worry about moving him when he has more going for him than 70% of those guys picked in front of him in the draft.
I think arguing that Sully is a superior prospect to leonard is a massive stretch.  But truth be told, I only picked Leonard, because he was the closest I could come to making my point... Would you rather have a late lotto pick or a borderline allstar big man?  Try to forget about your emotional attachment to SUlly and see him for what he is... A late lotto talent at the most (who was picked #21) and might turn into a good DeJuan Blair type.   It's very unlikely he'll become a star, but fwiw I had the same trouble convincing Celtic fans that Obese Davis wasn't going to be a star.   At most I think Sully will be a solid starter.  I'm excited to have him, but I'd give him up for an impact player.

Some have suggested his ceiling is Carlos Boozer.  Fine... I'd gladly give up a guy who is 5 years away from being Carlos Boozer if it will net me a guy who is Josh Smith today.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #99 on: December 10, 2012, 04:18:14 PM »

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I take Meyers Leonard over Sully.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #100 on: December 10, 2012, 05:11:50 PM »

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I don't see him as "untouchable", however when you look at this team you have to wonder how long we can extend "the window".  Having said that, when people mention Bradley, Green, or Sully in trades you have to ask yourself if the player we'd receive in return would extend the window or open a new one?

As much as I like Gortat/Varejo I see those players as extenders, Josh Smith, however IMO would open a new one.  And even if we could obtain Smith, it would be nice to keep at least one of our future starters. 
 

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2012, 04:03:04 AM »

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Larbrd33 mentioned Meyers Leonard, but Sully's ceiling has surely got to be considered much higher than Leonards?

Curious why you think that.  Is it simply because you've watched Sully for 20 games and his 5 points 5 rebounds per game is more impressive than Meyers Leonard's 5 points and 5 rebounds per game?  I have a hard time calling that anything other than total homerism.

Well you could argue that Sullinger has been slotted into a championship contending squad and achieved better stats in the same minutes, grasping a much more difficult defensive scheme and has dramatically improved since game one. Leonard is doing okay as well out there with a team of bums, racing towards mediocrity/the lottery and the best he's putting up is 5 ppg and 3.5 rpg. 

Not sure if you've read the earlier posts in this discussion but if you're looking for a reason as to why Sully's ceiling might be higher after 20 games, go up a few posts and read what Yogi wrote.
Here it is again:
Yogi
Quote
Sully's ceiling is extremely high despite the fact that he's not athletic.  Similar to athleticism, size and health setting your physical ceiling, IQ, attitude and work ethic set your mental ceiling.  Andre Miller, Paul Pierce, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Boris Diaw, Elton Brand, Glen Davis etc. are guys who achieved way more than their physical profiles predicted thanks to their work ethic/IQ/attitude. 
   Sullinger's skill level is unbelievable for a 20 year old.  How many 20 year olds shoot like this kid?  make free throws like him?  Rebound like him?  Pass like him?  understand defensive rotations like him?  know and accept their roles on offense like him?  He doesn't get frustrated when the officials rob him.  He doesn't care if he starts or comes off the bench.  He works with Rondo every day after practice.  He does everything KG tells him to do.  Doc already trusts him more than any rookie EVER including Rondo. 
   In the future, he will develop a post game, become a much better defender, improve his range and shooting, improve his physique etc. his ceiling is incredibly high and he has given us NO REASON to doubt that he won't reach it. 

Do Leonards physical assets and attitude give him a shot at being a stud? Of course.
As you said, it's only been 20 games, but you've seen Leonard play, probably from watching Lillard like myself. So who would you take to build a championship team with.
Sully or Leonard?
And who is more likely to become an All Star?

I smell an anti-homer response coming, and I've said numerous times that I'd move Sully for a game changing big. But I do understand why some 'homers' worry about moving him when he has more going for him than 70% of those guys picked in front of him in the draft.
I think arguing that Sully is a superior prospect to leonard is a massive stretch.  But truth be told, I only picked Leonard, because he was the closest I could come to making my point... Would you rather have a late lotto pick or a borderline allstar big man?  Try to forget about your emotional attachment to SUlly and see him for what he is... A late lotto talent at the most (who was picked #21) and might turn into a good DeJuan Blair type.   It's very unlikely he'll become a star, but fwiw I had the same trouble convincing Celtic fans that Obese Davis wasn't going to be a star.   At most I think Sully will be a solid starter.  I'm excited to have him, but I'd give him up for an impact player.

Some have suggested his ceiling is Carlos Boozer.  Fine... I'd gladly give up a guy who is 5 years away from being Carlos Boozer if it will net me a guy who is Josh Smith today.

Well as I've said, twice in this thread- I'd gladly give up Sully for an All Star big man. You don't have to convince me. Our window is 2 years at the moment. When KG and Pierce are gone, so are we. So if it must be done, no worries.

You're arguing that people are over rating Sully, and I'm saying you may be severely under rating him given the system he's in, his physical and mental attributes and nose for rebounding. To many observers, not only those wearing green glasses, Sully is much closer than 5 years to being a better player than Carlos Boozer.

Comparing Sully to big baby almost seems like you're reaching for straws. We're talking about a lottery level talent in a very good draft, already getting it done in a solid pattern of minutes per game vs an overweight, egotistical athlete with potential that barely played his first season.
Sully has the IQ, shooting touch and awareness that big baby could only dream of.
I also remember when you called Steimsma a bum, and Avery Bradley a bum- they were both far from that within 6 months. I sometimes wonder if you're still hoping Avery Bradley doesn't pan out so you could be right lol.
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2012, 02:47:45 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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I feel that the 20 year old Sullinger has a tremendous feel for the game of basketball, and that, along with his work ethic, is what's going to define his career. 

He's a big body who can shoot, rebound, pass, finish at the rim, and seems to have the instincts to become a good team defender.  What's not to like about what we've seen from Sully so far.   

Once he figures out how to use his big body to post up, and figures out how to convert shots in the 3-9 foot range (28% this year), Sullinger could become a legit low post option. 

All that said, if you could package Sullinger with someone like Green to bring in a Josh Smith or Handy Andy, you do it, especially in the case of Smith, who gives you a legitimate chance of a title this year and next, and also some long term stability when Pierce and K retire. 

One thing I don't like about Varejao is his productivity goes down in the playoffs, when teams concentrate more on the little things, and play with higher energy than a regular season game. 

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2012, 03:36:22 PM »

Online Roy H.

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To many observers, not only those wearing green glasses, Sully is much closer than 5 years to being a better player than Carlos Boozer.

Who other than Celtics fans is saying that Sully is going to be better than Boozer in five years?

If you mean 25 year old Sully is likely to be better than 36 year old Boozer, I think you're probably right.  36 year old Boozer probably isn't going to be a great player.

If you mean 25 year old (or younger) Sully is likely to ever be better than prime Boozer (21 points, 12 rebounds, 56% shooting while being the best player on a 50 win team), I think that's not very probable.  Possible, but not "much closer than 5 years to being a better player" than Boozer.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 03:41:41 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2012, 03:46:52 PM »

Online Roy H.

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We're talking about a lottery level talent in a very good draft, already getting it done in a solid pattern of minutes per game vs an overweight, egotistical athlete with potential that barely played his first season.

Both were overweight, and both were picked in pretty good drafts.  As for minutes, Sully is averaging about 4 more minutes per game than BBD his rookie season.

I agree that Sully is seen as having a higher ceiling.



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