Author Topic: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?  (Read 9779 times)

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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2012, 09:09:07 AM »

Offline Edgar

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There are a few reasons I don't think he's likely to get traded.  Some of the intangibles are:

1. He's only 20 years old, and he's already good enough to start for most teams

Which 16+ teams would he start on?

Is it really hard to believe when DOC RIVERS wanted to start him going into his rookie season? May not have been entirely ready and needs a little refinement but going forward don't think its a stretch.

Doc Rivers hate rookies but he hates drama even more

Ray Allen and Rondo was in that moment coming into drama territory

p.s. I am not sure if I trust Doc desitions at all
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2012, 09:13:48 AM »

Offline Jeff

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if Sully is untouchable and Jeff Green is untradable does that mean they're destined to be packaged off as a package?  LOL
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Where does this notion that Doc Rivers hates rookies come from?  I mean seriously, Doc Rivers has consistently played rookies since he arrived here.  He doesn't play rookies that aren't ready to play, but if the rookie shows he can contribute he will play.

2004-05 - Won Atlantic
Allen - 16.4
Jefferson - 14.8
West - 13

05-06 - Crappy Team
Gomes - 22.6
Greene - 15.4
Green - 11.7

06-07 - Crappy Team
Rondo - 23.5
Powe - 11.4
Ray - 15.1 (about half the games)
Pinkney - 16.7 (only 6 games)

07-08 - NBA Champs
Davis - 13.6 (8.1 in the playoffs)
Pruitt - 6.3 (only 15 games)

08-09 - ECF Semis
Walker - 7.4 (29 games)
Giddens -  1.3 (6 games)

09-10 - NBA Finals
Hudson - 4.4 (16 games)
Lafayette - 22 (1 game)
Landry - 3 (1 game - also played 17 games for NY)

10-11 - ECF Semis
Bradley - 5.2 (only healthy about half)
Erden - 14.4 (about half)
Harangody - 8.6 (28 games)
Johnson - 8 (4 games - mid season injury add)

11-12 - ECF Finals
Stiemsma - 13.9 (most when healthy)
Johnson - 8.3 (about a third)
Moore - 8.7 (about half)


In other words, guys who were solid NBA level players got plenty of time as rookies.  Guys that were not, did not.  Pretty much what you would hope and expect your coach to do.  You certainly could question how much development Doc does with young guys, but if they can play as rookies he doesn't hesitate to play them.
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2012, 10:36:22 AM »

Online 2short

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Where does this notion that Doc Rivers hates rookies come from?  I mean seriously, Doc Rivers has consistently played rookies since he arrived here.  He doesn't play rookies that aren't ready to play, but if the rookie shows he can contribute he will play.

2004-05 - Won Atlantic
Allen - 16.4
Jefferson - 14.8
West - 13

05-06 - Crappy Team
Gomes - 22.6
Greene - 15.4
Green - 11.7

06-07 - Crappy Team
Rondo - 23.5
Powe - 11.4
Ray - 15.1 (about half the games)
Pinkney - 16.7 (only 6 games)

07-08 - NBA Champs
Davis - 13.6 (8.1 in the playoffs)
Pruitt - 6.3 (only 15 games)

08-09 - ECF Semis
Walker - 7.4 (29 games)
Giddens -  1.3 (6 games)

09-10 - NBA Finals
Hudson - 4.4 (16 games)
Lafayette - 22 (1 game)
Landry - 3 (1 game - also played 17 games for NY)

10-11 - ECF Semis
Bradley - 5.2 (only healthy about half)
Erden - 14.4 (about half)
Harangody - 8.6 (28 games)
Johnson - 8 (4 games - mid season injury add)

11-12 - ECF Finals
Stiemsma - 13.9 (most when healthy)
Johnson - 8.3 (about a third)
Moore - 8.7 (about half)


In other words, guys who were solid NBA level players got plenty of time as rookies.  Guys that were not, did not.  Pretty much what you would hope and expect your coach to do.  You certainly could question how much development Doc does with young guys, but if they can play as rookies he doesn't hesitate to play them.
tp but i think many of us have tried in vain to explain over and over that
"doc hates rookies" just isn't true, notice the guys who got minutes are nba players most the other guys aren't even in the league anymore
but don't worry in 2 seconds another thread will have a line doc won't play rookies

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2012, 10:59:48 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Where does this notion that Doc Rivers hates rookies come from?  I mean seriously, Doc Rivers has consistently played rookies since he arrived here.  He doesn't play rookies that aren't ready to play, but if the rookie shows he can contribute he will play.

2004-05 - Won Atlantic
Allen - 16.4
Jefferson - 14.8
West - 13

05-06 - Crappy Team
Gomes - 22.6
Greene - 15.4
Green - 11.7

06-07 - Crappy Team
Rondo - 23.5
Powe - 11.4
Ray - 15.1 (about half the games)
Pinkney - 16.7 (only 6 games)

07-08 - NBA Champs
Davis - 13.6 (8.1 in the playoffs)
Pruitt - 6.3 (only 15 games)

08-09 - ECF Semis
Walker - 7.4 (29 games)
Giddens -  1.3 (6 games)

09-10 - NBA Finals
Hudson - 4.4 (16 games)
Lafayette - 22 (1 game)
Landry - 3 (1 game - also played 17 games for NY)

10-11 - ECF Semis
Bradley - 5.2 (only healthy about half)
Erden - 14.4 (about half)
Harangody - 8.6 (28 games)
Johnson - 8 (4 games - mid season injury add)

11-12 - ECF Finals
Stiemsma - 13.9 (most when healthy)
Johnson - 8.3 (about a third)
Moore - 8.7 (about half)


In other words, guys who were solid NBA level players got plenty of time as rookies.  Guys that were not, did not.  Pretty much what you would hope and expect your coach to do.  You certainly could question how much development Doc does with young guys, but if they can play as rookies he doesn't hesitate to play them.
tp but i think many of us have tried in vain to explain over and over that
"doc hates rookies" just isn't true, notice the guys who got minutes are nba players most the other guys aren't even in the league anymore
but don't worry in 2 seconds another thread will have a line doc won't play rookies
Heck he gave Orien Greene over 15 minutes a game (he played in 80 games I think).  OG has been out of the league for years.  Allan Ray got heavy minutes as well and he played about half of the games.  He too sucks.

Doc Rivers plays the players he thinks will help the team win, whether it is a rookie or a 20 year veteran doesn't matter.  He plays the best players on the team.  He won't necessarily over play rookies to help them develop faster or anything like that, but he certainly plays them.
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2012, 11:17:45 AM »

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Where does this notion that Doc Rivers hates rookies come from?  I mean seriously, Doc Rivers has consistently played rookies since he arrived here. 

The notion comes from much of the board (not always the same people) consistently heavily overrating our rookies.  Since Doc doesn't play them as much as the overrating indicates, he must have a vendetta against them. 

I'd think Sully's role would tamper that kind of talk down this year though.  And I hope no one seriously believes Melo or Joseph are ready for real minutes.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2012, 11:43:52 AM »

Offline Jeff

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Doc plays who he's got - in some cases the best he's got is rookies and that may or may not be a good thing but ultimately that is Danny's responsibility
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2012, 01:38:28 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Some Spurs fans believe that Gregg Popovich hates rookies.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2012, 01:51:30 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Where does this notion that Doc Rivers hates rookies come from?  I mean seriously, Doc Rivers has consistently played rookies since he arrived here.  He doesn't play rookies that aren't ready to play, but if the rookie shows he can contribute he will play.

2004-05 - Won Atlantic
Allen - 16.4
Jefferson - 14.8
West - 13

05-06 - Crappy Team
Gomes - 22.6
Greene - 15.4
Green - 11.7

06-07 - Crappy Team
Rondo - 23.5
Powe - 11.4
Ray - 15.1 (about half the games)
Pinkney - 16.7 (only 6 games)

07-08 - NBA Champs
Davis - 13.6 (8.1 in the playoffs)
Pruitt - 6.3 (only 15 games)

08-09 - ECF Semis
Walker - 7.4 (29 games)
Giddens -  1.3 (6 games)

09-10 - NBA Finals
Hudson - 4.4 (16 games)
Lafayette - 22 (1 game)
Landry - 3 (1 game - also played 17 games for NY)

10-11 - ECF Semis
Bradley - 5.2 (only healthy about half)
Erden - 14.4 (about half)
Harangody - 8.6 (28 games)
Johnson - 8 (4 games - mid season injury add)

11-12 - ECF Finals
Stiemsma - 13.9 (most when healthy)
Johnson - 8.3 (about a third)
Moore - 8.7 (about half)


In other words, guys who were solid NBA level players got plenty of time as rookies.  Guys that were not, did not.  Pretty much what you would hope and expect your coach to do.  You certainly could question how much development Doc does with young guys, but if they can play as rookies he doesn't hesitate to play them.

Which one of those rookies do you think hes liked more than Jared? Went into the season wanting to start him on a suppose to be contending team over a guy who helped turn the season around last year and got a new contract? Granted it didn't work at first with Jared and lee  but it says a lot....those crap teams rookies mean little to nothing.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2012, 02:35:49 PM »

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There is the possibility that Danny has managed to rebuild through the draft and a couple of modest trades right in front of our eyes?

Rondo/Bradley
Lee/Bradley
Green/Joseph
Sullinger/Green
Melo (we pray one day)

So...if KG is an allstar C, we're set for a few years there.  And Pierce and JET are here as long as KG is, making us should-be contenders.

The trick is going to be filling the middle spot, not just now, but for the next few years and beyond the KG years, and possibly as Pierce and KG hang around for an extra year or two off the bench.

What we have available doesn't include Sully; he's the keeper over Bass.  Keeping both is a possiblity, and then we're pretty well all set there, too.

As long as KG/Wilcox/Collins works at the C position, there is really no reason we should be thinking trades unless we can pick up an allstar, preferably at the C position. 

And at that point, anyone is available.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2012, 04:38:30 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Sully is part of the future of this franchise. Wae have to build our own team and get away from the model that got us #17. That is not a lasting model for dominance ...

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2012, 04:45:54 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I said this in another thread... I think this is a good place for it, though.


Let me ask the "SULLY IS UNTOUCHABLE!" crowd a serious question. 

Sully probably had late lotto talent, but slipped to #21.  Fine, let's pretend he was a legit late lotto pick.  At the moment he's #11 in Efficiency amongst rookies... behind the likes of Alexey Shved  and Kyle Singler.  That's nice.

Take off the homer goggles for a second.  Meyers Leonard is the same age, is over 7 feet tall, was picked 10 spots higher than Sully (legit lotto pick), probably has more potential, and is putting up the same type of stats in the same type of minutes. 

Would you rather have Meyers Leonard or Pau/Big Al/Josh Smith/etc?

I'm curious if people are that attached to Sully simply because he's played 20 games as a Celtic and they are emotionally invested... or if they'd legitimately rather have a late lotto pick with perceived potential who averages 5 points/5 boards (Leonard)... over a guy who can contribute 20 and 10 immediately.

So who would consider Meyers Leonard untouchable?  Serious question.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 04:51:41 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2012, 05:31:41 PM »

Offline Yogi

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I said this in another thread... I think this is a good place for it, though.


Let me ask the "SULLY IS UNTOUCHABLE!" crowd a serious question. 

Sully probably had late lotto talent, but slipped to #21.  Fine, let's pretend he was a legit late lotto pick.  At the moment he's #11 in Efficiency amongst rookies... behind the likes of Alexey Shved  and Kyle Singler.  That's nice.

Take off the homer goggles for a second.  Meyers Leonard is the same age, is over 7 feet tall, was picked 10 spots higher than Sully (legit lotto pick), probably has more potential, and is putting up the same type of stats in the same type of minutes. 

Would you rather have Meyers Leonard or Pau/Big Al/Josh Smith/etc?

I'm curious if people are that attached to Sully simply because he's played 20 games as a Celtic and they are emotionally invested... or if they'd legitimately rather have a late lotto pick with perceived potential who averages 5 points/5 boards (Leonard)... over a guy who can contribute 20 and 10 immediately.

So who would consider Meyers Leonard untouchable?  Serious question.

   Sully's ceiling is extremely high despite the fact that he's not athletic.  Similar to athleticism, size and health setting your physical ceiling, IQ, attitude and work ethic set your mental ceiling.  Andre Miller, Paul Pierce, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Boris Diaw, Elton Brand, Glen Davis etc. are guys who achieved way more than their physical profiles predicted thanks to their work ethic/IQ/attitude. 
   Sullinger's skill level is unbelievable for a 20 year old.  How many 20 year olds shoot like this kid?  make free throws like him?  Rebound like him?  Pass like him?  understand defensive rotations like him?  know and accept their roles on offense like him?  He doesn't get frustrated when the officials rob him.  He doesn't care if he starts or comes off the bench.  He works with Rondo every day after practice.  He does everything KG tells him to do.  Doc already trusts him more than any rookie EVER including Rondo. 
   In the future, he will develop a post game, become a much better defender, improve his range and shooting, improve his physique etc. his ceiling is incredibly high and he has given us NO REASON to doubt that he won't reach it. 
   I don't believe any player is untouchable, but the price for Bradley and Sullinger are very, very high.  I wouldn't trade both of them together unless it nets us a player at least in the MVP conversation.
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Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2012, 05:42:09 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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He's not untouchable, but he is putting up really nice numbers for a rookie PF and is cheaper than Bass.

Only thing Bass has on Sully is his athleticism.

Bass's contract is what make him trade bate, high enough contract you can use in a package, but not too big to scare the other teams away.

Re: Why do so many see Sully as "untouchable" in trades?
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2012, 05:56:26 PM »

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I actually think that Danny would rather keep Sully than Bradley.
I just repeated this in another thread, but Sully is starting look like we could have an All Star version of Carlos Boozer on our hands in a few years.
Big, strong, dropping weight quickly, decent jumpshot that will only get better.
But obviously the difference is that Sully can rebound and play defense like a 3-4 year NBA veteran. He's getting some fluff rookie calls from the refs but in 20 games his defense has gone from horrid to solid and he literally gets better every game. Watching him off the ball, he's continually watching his man and getting to his spot on rotations whilst finding, sealing and boxing out whoever comes near the key to rebound.
He's the most impressive addition we've had this season for me, even more than Green or Terry because we knew what they were capable of.
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

 

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