Author Topic: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.  (Read 3336 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2012, 03:05:52 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • NCE
  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9253
  • Tommy Points: 480
OP .., has some words of truth.  Rondo is a GREAT defender ... "IF" he wants to be or if he chooses to defend and spend the energy. Another part of his tempermental attitude.

Rondo also is probally instructed not to defend TOO hard by Doc and watch his fouls, ROndo needs to be in the game for offense at the end of the game.  Doc has him holding back maybe some , cause there is no good point guard replacement if he fouls out.

So some of the "LAX" may be to Docs wanting ROndo around at the end of the game. ???



Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 03:12:06 PM »

Offline snively

  • Antoine Walker
  • *****
  • Posts: 5371
  • Tommy Points: 383
Rondo's been fine defensively though he does have an irritating tendency to drift/sink off ball - gives up more 3s than he should as a result.

The defensive problems with this team are at the 2, the 4, and off the bench.  Terry's a sizable defensive liability as a starting 2-guard, Bass is a quick-footed but wild pick and roll defender (gets way out of position too often), Sully & Wilcox are foul machines and poor individual defenders (Sully's a slow team defender to boot), we have no defensive quality at the 5 behind KG.

KG and to a lesser extent Rondo and Pierce are the team's defensive assets.  Lee to an even lesser extent.  The rest of the rotation is comprised of average (Bass/Green) to bad (Terry/Barbosa/Sully/Wilcox) defenders.

Pick 2 Team: Rockets (McHale)
PG M. Chalmers ($4 mil) SG J. Harden ($5.8 mil) SF W. Chandler ($5.9) PF Nene ($13) C S. Hawes ($6.5) 6th man: Ginobli ($14.1) 7th man: Marv Williams ($8.3) Enforcers: F. Ezeli ($1), C. Hayes ($5.5) Bench Marksman: A. Morrow ($4) Young Gun: R. Jackson ($1.2) Greybeard: P. Prigioni ($.5) Towel-Waver: Mike Scott ($.5)

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 03:40:12 PM »

Offline ScottHow

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1710
  • Tommy Points: 354
  • It's what I do! It's who I am!
    • Sports Paintings
I really think AB has spoiled fans. Rondo has always been a gambler, but imo only since AB had his run has the Rondo's D sucks threads really come out.

It's not realistic to want a pg his size to give 100% effort on both ends for 82 games plus playoffs. Not to mention his key role in the offense and how our whole team relies on him for open looks.

I've been much more concerned about Lee's D, considering that's basically the only thing we are asking from him(besides 3 pt shooting)

So don't expect AB type D, and wait til the playoffs for the Real Rondo to show up because he saved his body by coasting on D.

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 04:03:42 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11854
  • Tommy Points: 1132
I really think AB has spoiled fans. Rondo has always been a gambler, but imo only since AB had his run has the Rondo's D sucks threads really come out.

It's not realistic to want a pg his size to give 100% effort on both ends for 82 games plus playoffs. Not to mention his key role in the offense and how our whole team relies on him for open looks.

I've been much more concerned about Lee's D, considering that's basically the only thing we are asking from him(besides 3 pt shooting)

So don't expect AB type D, and wait til the playoffs for the Real Rondo to show up because he saved his body by coasting on D.

I've personally been harping about Rondo's defense since the Big 3 have been with us, so this is nothing new to me. Some days he looks great, and others he falls back into bad habits. Part of his problem is his defensive stance is not conductive to stay in front of a player.

I personally have little problem with him gambling on the passing lanes, I think that's a worthy risk as it's a timing thing which he usually does correctly.

What I don't like is his lazy defensive effort to stop penetration and sometimes on how he fights through screens, that's indefensible in my opinion. The only redeeming facet of this is that he's one of the best playing from behind the ball (stripping the ball and blocking the shot from behind), but it puts our bigs in a very bad situation more often than not.

Coincidentally, he does well bodying up bigger players like SGs and SFs.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 04:09:25 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2012, 06:03:00 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

  • NCE
  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3620
  • Tommy Points: 105
This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.

That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.

You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion.  Don't worry, it's a common problem.  You're not alone.

Sorry buddy. I DO know the difference, and it IS an undeniable fact. It is provable. All you have to do is watch the games, rewind the tape if you need to pay a little closer attention, and unless you are just a Rondo excuser you will see that these are true facts.

Fact - Rondo is one of the FASTEST players in the NBA. This means that very few guards have the foot speed to beat him off the dribble if he is playing fundamental defense. See Bradley and the way he keeps his feet in front of his defender...

Fact - Rondo consistently lets his man past him and tries to POKE the ball out from behind. This isn't debatable. It is clear for you to see if you want to. This is NOT fundamental defense. It is gambling lazy defense. That is a fact.

Fact - Rondo cheats the passing lanes and often turns his back to his man when the ball is not in their hands. Clearly he is trying to jump the lanes and steal the ball. I get that, however as often as he steals the ball, his man gets a wide open shot. Not great defense and if you watch the tape it is undeniable.

Fact - When they are on national TV or it is playoff time he plays a different level of defense. All you have to do is watch the tape. He steps up his effort and plays at an elite level. This is also an undeniable fact.

I am not sure what you could possibly argue above to be an opinion. If it is provable, which it is, it is a fact. Doesn't make Rondo a bad player. Just means he could be better than he is. If he is satisfied with that then I don't get it. If you refuse to admit that then I don't get that either.

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2012, 07:19:44 PM »

Offline jdz101

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2418
  • Tommy Points: 308
Tell this to the All NBA first defensive award committee.

Ok yes hes lazy, but not in the national spotlight. on National broadcast and in the playoffs he steps it up. Last night was pretty pathetic though, Barea had two wide open layups back to back and Rondo was nowhere in sight.

  Barea was coming off of picks and going directly to the hoop. There's no chance any point guard is going to come off the pick behind Barea and end up in front of him in the time it takes him to get from the three point line to the hoop.

Barrea is also quick as lightning.

Sorry you dont make excuses for those defensive possessions. Watch the footage again. If you see a screen coming (like rondo did) and make zero effort to get through it and at least hassle your man on his way to the hoop that is laziness. Nobody switched on rondo's man because they were the most feeble, pathetic pick'n'pop screens ever that any NBA player should have gotten through.

As for Barea being quick, ridnour also exploited this last night.

I'm not trying to get into Rondo personally here, but a lot of defensive problems right now stem from our 3, 4 and 5 man helping out on rondo's man, leaving their man open.

We have two games against jrue holiday coming up, and its going to get mighty frustrating if rondo doesnt pick up his guy properly in the half court.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 07:25:36 PM by jdz101 »


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2012, 07:24:50 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8304
  • Tommy Points: 835
This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.

That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.

You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion.  Don't worry, it's a common problem.  You're not alone.

Sorry buddy. I DO know the difference, and it IS an undeniable fact. It is provable. All you have to do is watch the games, rewind the tape if you need to pay a little closer attention, and unless you are just a Rondo excuser you will see that these are true facts.

Fact - Rondo is one of the FASTEST players in the NBA. This means that very few guards have the foot speed to beat him off the dribble if he is playing fundamental defense. See Bradley and the way he keeps his feet in front of his defender...

Fact - Rondo consistently lets his man past him and tries to POKE the ball out from behind. This isn't debatable. It is clear for you to see if you want to. This is NOT fundamental defense. It is gambling lazy defense. That is a fact.

Fact - Rondo cheats the passing lanes and often turns his back to his man when the ball is not in their hands. Clearly he is trying to jump the lanes and steal the ball. I get that, however as often as he steals the ball, his man gets a wide open shot. Not great defense and if you watch the tape it is undeniable.

Fact - When they are on national TV or it is playoff time he plays a different level of defense. All you have to do is watch the tape. He steps up his effort and plays at an elite level. This is also an undeniable fact.

I am not sure what you could possibly argue above to be an opinion. If it is provable, which it is, it is a fact. Doesn't make Rondo a bad player. Just means he could be better than he is. If he is satisfied with that then I don't get it. If you refuse to admit that then I don't get that either.



I agree with many of your observations.  I just have drawn different conclusions.

I think there are only a handful of guards (if there are any) who are as good man defenders as Avery Bradley.  So your point is kind of moot there.  And, even Bradley's man gets in the lane on occasion off the pick play.

Yes, Rondo tries to poke the ball away when the man gets by him.  I would argue that it is more that he is still trying to make a play after the guy gets past him than that he is purposefully letting the guy get past him.

Yes, he cheats off certain guys looking to make plays off the ball.  I think that is partially by design, but I will admit that I've heard Doc say that he sometimes does it more than he'd like.  Of course, in hindsight, it's always a good play when it leads to a steal, a turnover, or a bad shot, but it's a mistake when it leads to an open jumper.   

Yes, I agree that he has a tendency to step up his play in the biggest games. 

While I have made many of the same observations as you have in watching Rondo's defense, those observations don't add up to your opinion that Rondo "plays lazy defense."  I, along with most NBA experts, believe that he's one of the best defensive point guards in the game.  He makes plays on the defensive end of the floor, he's a disruptor.  To me, that's what you want defensively out of your point guard.  He's one of the best at that.

With all the pick and roll play that happens in this league, coupled with the elite ability of lead guards to make plays off the dribble, you won't find a single guard who single-handedly keeps the opposing team's best ball handling guards out of the lane for an entire game.  It that's what you are looking for and anything else equals failure, you are setting yourself up to only see failure. 



Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2012, 07:33:35 PM »

Offline jdz101

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2418
  • Tommy Points: 308

With all the pick and roll play that happens in this league, coupled with the elite ability of lead guards to make plays off the dribble, you won't find a single guard who single-handedly keeps the opposing team's best ball handling guards out of the lane for an entire game.  It that's what you are looking for and anything else equals failure, you are setting yourself up to only see failure.

That isn't what I'm asking for. All I'm asking for is for him to fight through a single screen or at least hassle his man on the way to the basket. It is no coincidence that great driving guards like Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook consistently go off against the Celtics. These guys aren't Chris Paul. All they do is make a step and drive in a straight line to one side of the basket, either making a pass or scoring themselves.

I also get that this team likes to trap on the baseline, using it as a defender and then surrounding the ball handler, but rondo uses that as an excuse to let his man blow by him at the top of the key. There is no trap coming if the help cant get there in time.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2012, 08:10:22 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8304
  • Tommy Points: 835

With all the pick and roll play that happens in this league, coupled with the elite ability of lead guards to make plays off the dribble, you won't find a single guard who single-handedly keeps the opposing team's best ball handling guards out of the lane for an entire game.  It that's what you are looking for and anything else equals failure, you are setting yourself up to only see failure.

That isn't what I'm asking for. All I'm asking for is for him to fight through a single screen or at least hassle his man on the way to the basket. It is no coincidence that great driving guards like Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook consistently go off against the Celtics. These guys aren't Chris Paul. All they do is make a step and drive in a straight line to one side of the basket, either making a pass or scoring themselves.

I also get that this team likes to trap on the baseline, using it as a defender and then surrounding the ball handler, but rondo uses that as an excuse to let his man blow by him at the top of the key. There is no trap coming if the help cant get there in time.

If I had time, I'd look up Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook's total individual numbers against the Celtics since Rondo has been our starting point guard.  I haven't looked it up, but my guess is they'd be down from their overall numbers during that time span. 

Regardless of that, though, I do think that the help in the lane has to come faster and more decisively for this team to play the kind of D we've grown accustomed to seeing.  It's been getting better the last few games, but it's on everybody to step it up. 

Rondo is at his best defensively when he knows he can trust his back line defenders to rotate and make plays.  It frees him up to do the things he does well which are getting in passing lanes and playing his free safety role. 

When those things are all happening together, our defense is very, very good.

When the defense is struggling, it's the easy way out to look at the point guard and put it all on him.  He's the guy matched up with the guy with the ball in his hands whose job is to get in the lane.  When that guy gets in the lane, and the help isn't there, the point guard is the player who ends up looking bad. 

Rondo's defensive "mistakes" are the easiest to see.  He's generally the guy guarding the ball.  Anyway, this is all part of why I'm so excited to see Bradley come back.  His return should help free Rondo up to do the things he does best defensively off the ball and in passing lanes as Avery spends a lot of time covering the other team's best ball handlers.


Re: Rondo's guard defense is shameful at the moment.
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2012, 10:46:28 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22116
  • Tommy Points: 1006
This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.

That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.

You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion.  Don't worry, it's a common problem.  You're not alone.

Sorry buddy. I DO know the difference, and it IS an undeniable fact. It is provable. All you have to do is watch the games, rewind the tape if you need to pay a little closer attention, and unless you are just a Rondo excuser you will see that these are true facts.

Fact - Rondo is one of the FASTEST players in the NBA. This means that very few guards have the foot speed to beat him off the dribble if he is playing fundamental defense. See Bradley and the way he keeps his feet in front of his defender...

  It's not a fact that Rondo gets beat off the dribble very often. Almost every time Rondo's man gets into the lane it's because they used a pick to get by Rondo. Bradley hasn't played this year but he got beat off the dribble at least as often as Rondo, and offensive players went at Bradley more often than they went at Rondo.

Fact - Rondo consistently lets his man past him and tries to POKE the ball out from behind. This isn't debatable. It is clear for you to see if you want to. This is NOT fundamental defense. It is gambling lazy defense. That is a fact.

  It's a fact that Rondo tries to poke the ball out from behind when his man gets past him. It's not a fact that he consistently lets his man go past him on purpose. I guess your opinion of fundamental defense is to *not* try and poke the ball loose when your man gets past you, I disagree.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog