Author Topic: Green and Lee both called bad signings  (Read 4269 times)

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Offline moiso

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2012, 01:04:58 PM »
I'm sure part of the reason he's jumping on this in December is so he can say "See? I told you this was a bad signing 3 months ago!"  In fact, he called it the worst contract of the summer.  But I don't know how anyone here can say that Jeff Green at $9 mil a year for 4 years was a good signing.

Because analysts alike keep ignoring cap situation, season's goal, the new CBA, the team make-up, the possible alternative, youth talent + tradeable asset.

The question is, who'd you rather have at this point in time than Jeff Green, and does the Jeff Green signing prevented that acquisition in any way?

We can moan and cry all we want about Jeff Green deserving this contract or not, but from both a business perspective and a basketball perspective, I'm hard pressed to find this supposed big downside to the Jeff Green signing to garner so much negative attention.
Why pick just this one point in time to evaluate the Green signing?  It's a four year contract.  There are going to be plenty more points in time when we will be evaluating the contract.

Offline ssspence

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2012, 01:20:53 PM »
Bad signings as of now.




I think Lee has a better chance to make good on his deal just because of the lower value.

I agree. Its pretty hard to argue otherwise. Lee will improve and / or is pretty tradable.

My understanding is that the Cs wanted to do right by Green, both because they think he's a great kid -- they really like him and hope he can grow into that contract -- but in no small part because they wanted to show NBA players that they take care of their guys, even those who go through hard times.... that Boston is a great place to sign, not just to be traded to / drafted to and play.

Still -- his contract is extremely hard to understand. They were bidding against themselves at that dollar amount and year total. Anyone who says they weren't perplexed when they read the news is fibbing....

Well, Boston NEEDED a decent small-forward, and since they had already spent the MLE on JET and didn't have much for trade assets, pretty much the only guy they could sign based on the CBA's logistics was Green.  It was either re-sign Green or pick up someone with only the LLE/vet-min contract.

Not suggesting that they shouldn't have signed him. I'm saying his contract is poor, and was likely unnecessary.

I don't disagree; they paid more than what Green's value likely would have been without all the CBA issues.

But, while the C's may have been the only team seriously bidding for Jeff Green's services, Jeff Green being really the only small forward that Boston could realistically bring aboard to spell Pierce significantly weakened their own bargaining position.  If they only offered Green an MLE-level deal and he walked, the C's would be pretty well hosed.  You'd be counting on Kris Joseph and maybe a vet-min guy to keep Pierce's minutes in check.

The C's were *not* bargaining from a position of strength.

The question in my mind; should JET have been the priority, or should they have explored signing a small forward earlier in the free agency process?

i get your point, but i think you're stretching it.

1) Green wanted to be here. The Cs treated him well while ill, and he has the opportunity to become a lead guy as the torch is passed from Pierce - he'd of stayed under a competitive offer.

2) You don't see good NBA front offices put such a high percentage of their cap for so long (4 years) against a role guy with no truly unique skill and questionable health. See SAS, OKC, Dallas, etc. And Ainge usually doesn't. Green's deal was / is the same length as Rondo's at about 75% of the value. Ouch.

3) The difference in production had the Cs just signed Josh Howard or the like -- at least thus far -- is negligible.

I get it -- the Cs got caught up in an 'all in' mentality around players whose rights they maintained because of their shortage of cap options. Doesn't mean it was the right decision. 

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »
I'm sure part of the reason he's jumping on this in December is so he can say "See? I told you this was a bad signing 3 months ago!"  In fact, he called it the worst contract of the summer.  But I don't know how anyone here can say that Jeff Green at $9 mil a year for 4 years was a good signing.

Because analysts alike keep ignoring cap situation, season's goal, the new CBA, the team make-up, the possible alternative, youth talent + tradeable asset.

The question is, who'd you rather have at this point in time than Jeff Green, and does the Jeff Green signing prevented that acquisition in any way?

We can moan and cry all we want about Jeff Green deserving this contract or not, but from both a business perspective and a basketball perspective, I'm hard pressed to find this supposed big downside to the Jeff Green signing to garner so much negative attention.
Why pick just this one point in time to evaluate the Green signing?  It's a four year contract.  There are going to be plenty more points in time when we will be evaluating the contract.

Well, I don't think it's necessary to pick just "this point" but considering all other factors, I think it's the most crucial. Considering our championship window, considering the opportunity cost, I don't think there's a more vital point of evaluation than now as it regards player acquisition. Considering our future financials, within a year or two, Green's contract would become irrelevant as far possible player signings go.

The only argument I see having weight is mid-level signings in the next couple of years possibility. Mid-Level might still be in play next year though, but I'd rather have a mid-level talent, which Green at the very least is, on hand as of right now, particularly with our current championship window.

Offline mrpoundforpound

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2012, 07:04:26 PM »
Hollinger and ESPN are being idiots. As celtics fans we watch the games and know that jeff green has the potential to be a steal at 9 million per year. I know there are many members that agree with me on this since they constantly state that they see it as well.

Offline nickagneta

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2012, 07:10:51 PM »
Hollinger and ESPN are being idiots. As celtics fans we watch the games and know that jeff green has the potential to be a steal at 9 million per year. I know there are many members that agree with me on this since they constantly state that they see it as well.
You know what potential means?

Potential is the word people use when describing someone that hasn't done anything yet.

I don't think after 5 years in the league the Celtics should have dished out $36 million for Green's potential. And that is why the contract he got is so bad.
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Offline mrpoundforpound

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2012, 07:23:14 PM »
Hollinger and ESPN are being idiots. As celtics fans we watch the games and know that jeff green has the potential to be a steal at 9 million per year. I know there are many members that agree with me on this since they constantly state that they see it as well.
You know what potential means?

Potential is the word people use when describing someone that hasn't done anything yet.

I don't think after 5 years in the league the Celtics should have dished out $36 million for Green's potential. And that is why the contract he got is so bad.

No one comes in to the league having done anything. They are drafted and paid on their potential. Green has the potential its just that Doc chooses to sit him on the bench all game so it never shows. No one can play better than he has in the limited time of 22 minutes.

Offline nickagneta

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2012, 07:43:41 PM »
Hollinger and ESPN are being idiots. As celtics fans we watch the games and know that jeff green has the potential to be a steal at 9 million per year. I know there are many members that agree with me on this since they constantly state that they see it as well.
You know what potential means?

Potential is the word people use when describing someone that hasn't done anything yet.

I don't think after 5 years in the league the Celtics should have dished out $36 million for Green's potential. And that is why the contract he got is so bad.

No one comes in to the league having done anything. They are drafted and paid on their potential. Green has the potential its just that Doc chooses to sit him on the bench all game so it never shows. No one can play better than he has in the limited time of 22 minutes.
Players with 22 MPG or less that are having better years than Green:

Markief Morris
Martell Webster
Nate Robinson
Andray Blatche
Javale McGee
Tiaggo Splitter
Eric Bledsoe

Enough with the blaming of Doc. Doc isn't the one that has played 8 games where he wasn't able to do just about anything at all in those games. That was Green. Look at some of these box scores he has posted this year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenje02/gamelog/2013/

Besides the fact that in 11 of those games he couldn't score in double figures, or that in 15 of those games he couldn't get more than 4 rebounds, he has played horrid defense in just about all of them.

$9 million a year for potential from a 5 year vet is just an idiotic, stupid, ridiculous contract that at this point really can not be defended against what Green has delivered.
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Offline mrpoundforpound

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2012, 07:53:10 PM »
Hollinger and ESPN are being idiots. As celtics fans we watch the games and know that jeff green has the potential to be a steal at 9 million per year. I know there are many members that agree with me on this since they constantly state that they see it as well.
You know what potential means?

Potential is the word people use when describing someone that hasn't done anything yet.

I don't think after 5 years in the league the Celtics should have dished out $36 million for Green's potential. And that is why the contract he got is so bad.

No one comes in to the league having done anything. They are drafted and paid on their potential. Green has the potential its just that Doc chooses to sit him on the bench all game so it never shows. No one can play better than he has in the limited time of 22 minutes.
Players with 22 MPG or less that are having better years than Green:

Markief Morris
Martell Webster
Nate Robinson
Andray Blatche
Javale McGee
Tiaggo Splitter
Eric Bledsoe

Enough with the blaming of Doc. Doc isn't the one that has played 8 games where he wasn't able to do just about anything at all in those games. That was Green. Look at some of these box scores he has posted this year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenje02/gamelog/2013/

Besides the fact that in 11 of those games he couldn't score in double figures, or that in 15 of those games he couldn't get more than 4 rebounds, he has played horrid defense in just about all of them.

$9 million a year for potential from a 5 year vet is just an idiotic, stupid, ridiculous contract that at this point really can not be defended against what Green has delivered.

Don't want Blatche. Hes a good offensive player but a horrible locker room presense unlike Jeff Green. He's also selfish and a ballhog.

Offline nickagneta

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2012, 07:57:41 PM »
Your argument was that no one could play better than Green has in just 22 minutes per game. I proved that absolutely wrong. And I didn't include a bunch of guys who's per minute stats and defense are better than Green's.

You don't like Blatche? Fine but at the league minimum he's playing much better than Green while making almost $8 million a year less.

Green should have gotten a prove it to me contract. Simple as that one year, mediocre money.
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Offline jowwwman

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2012, 08:00:45 PM »
Hollinger and ESPN are being idiots. As celtics fans we watch the games and know that jeff green has the potential to be a steal at 9 million per year. I know there are many members that agree with me on this since they constantly state that they see it as well.
You know what potential means?

Potential is the word people use when describing someone that hasn't done anything yet.

I don't think after 5 years in the league the Celtics should have dished out $36 million for Green's potential. And that is why the contract he got is so bad.

No one comes in to the league having done anything. They are drafted and paid on their potential. Green has the potential its just that Doc chooses to sit him on the bench all game so it never shows. No one can play better than he has in the limited time of 22 minutes.
Players with 22 MPG or less that are having better years than Green:

Markief Morris
Martell Webster
Nate Robinson
Andray Blatche
Javale McGee
Tiaggo Splitter
Eric Bledsoe

Enough with the blaming of Doc. Doc isn't the one that has played 8 games where he wasn't able to do just about anything at all in those games. That was Green. Look at some of these box scores he has posted this year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenje02/gamelog/2013/

Besides the fact that in 11 of those games he couldn't score in double figures, or that in 15 of those games he couldn't get more than 4 rebounds, he has played horrid defense in just about all of them.

$9 million a year for potential from a 5 year vet is just an idiotic, stupid, ridiculous contract that at this point really can not be defended against what Green has delivered.

Don't want Blatche. Hes a good offensive player but a horrible locker room presense unlike Jeff Green. He's also selfish and a ballhog.

Not sure if you have been watching but Blatche has been one of the best players on the Nets the past few games and I'm talking about just watching him play and not his box score. This is contrast to Green who always looks lost on the floor despite his box score. But no I'm sure you would rather have Green's strong locker room leadership than a player that actually helps the team win. and please STOP bringing up the fact that Green does more than his box score. I'm sure we can all agree he does considerably less.

Offline Who

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2012, 08:06:06 PM »
I think Courtney Lee is doing fine. He has struggled a bit with his shot and understanding where his shots are coming from but he looks a lot more settled over the past couple of weeks and is gradually improving. In another couple of weeks, he'll be right where we want him performance wise.  I have no problem with Lee's value. I think his contract is fair for a player with his abilities / performance level.

Jeff Green is vastly overpaid but that was always going to be the case because he is only a 20-25 minute a night backup forward here. Very hard to earn your $9 million in that role. Based on his play so far, I'd value him somewhere around $4 million. So yeah, I'd say Green is one of the worst money vs performance signings of the summer to date.

Offline Brendan

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2012, 08:51:17 PM »
Green signing depends on Green getting big minutes to be worthwhile. But with the Captain starting SF, 3 SGs (Lee, Terry, Barbosa) and 3 PFs (Bass, Sullinger, Wilcox) getting minutes, there is no way for him to get 30+/g which is what he needs.

Offline LooseCannon

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2012, 10:03:08 PM »
I interpret the Green signing as meaning that Ainge is not sure that Pierce will be capable of being a 30 mpg starter next season and that he's not sure he could get a better SF with the MLE in the summer of 2013 (and would rather use that on a center, anyways).
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Offline cman88

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2012, 10:15:26 PM »
Green's last 4 games

19points
8points
18points
19points

if he can Consistently start to give us that production off the bench as well as the rebounds he has been getting lately(had 8 tonight, 6 2 games ago) I think it makes his contract worth it

Offline jowwwman

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Re: Green and Lee both called bad signings
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2012, 10:28:27 PM »
Blatche's game today: 22/15/ 4 steals on 61% shooting. Over last 5 games he's averaging 19/11. I think Green needs more than a string of decent five games to prove he's on Blatche's level.

 

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