Author Topic: Sox sign Victorino  (Read 10003 times)

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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 12:37:45 AM »

Offline MBz

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Speed and defense isn't worth 13 mil a year.  I feel like we could have gotn Ichiro for 6-7 and he's give us everything if not more then Victorino.
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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2012, 02:14:47 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Speed and defense isn't worth 13 mil a year.  I feel like we could have gotn Ichiro for 6-7 and he's give us everything if not more then Victorino.

Look at what other outfielders are getting.  13 million is the going rate this winter.

Also, I'll second what Tony Mazz has been saying in response to fan criticism of these signings -- who are these guys blocking?  Where would that money have been spent elsewhere?  On Josh Hamilton?  The Sox have made clear that's not in their plan.

The Sox have a three year plan, it seems to me, which involves paying extra money to get decent players to sign on shorter (3 yrs or less) deals.  I doubt the Sox view anybody who is currently on the 40-man roster as a lock to be around 3 years from now.  With the exception of maybe Middlebrooks and Lavarnway (if he pans out), nobody who starts the season on the big league roster for the Red Sox next season has a great likelihood of making it past this 3 year transition period.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:23:11 AM by PhoSita »
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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2012, 02:22:27 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Napoli and Victorino are mid level talent at best and yet they both get 8 figure salaries for three years each.

Sorry, but this is some of the absolutely stupidest signings I have seen this team make since the days of the Lou Gorman Sox. $13 million a year for mediocre at best level talent is a huge waste of money.

The Sox are going to be another last place team again next year that will have a huge payroll because they are giving star money to role playing players at best.


I don't disagree with anything in your post except your assertion that these are stupid moves.  I think Sox ownership absolutely expects that this team will be an 80-85 win team for at least the next season or two.  They made the "Punto trade" to get out from underneath a mountain of bad money, and they're in no rush to get back under one.  They need to regain fan trust / interest, so they have to spend money to put a team out there that is going to at least be more competitive than the ragtag squad that was out there at the end of this past season.  But that's a really low bar.

All ownership has to do is spend extra money to give replacement-level players shorter deals and they will have a team that is "gritty" and "hard-working."  People are so disgusted and jaded after the last two years of seeing Red Sox teams that woefully underperformed and fell far short of lofty expectations, that a team lacking in talent that merely meets low expectations will seem like "more than the sum of its parts," and therefore likable.

Having thus put in place a more "likable" and far cheaper team (despite "overpaying" for guys like Napoli and Victorino), the Sox can be patient in waiting for the young guys to develop, and not make a move to invest long term (through trade or free agency) in any true stars until it really makes sense for them to do so.
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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 08:39:35 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez than Napoli + Victorino.

I'd rather have Napoli + Victorino than Gonzalez + Beckett + Crawford + Punto.

LA had claimed Beckett on waivers, so he's not really part of the equation.  The Sox could have let him go for nothing.

Punto was making next to nothing, so he wasn't a big concern, either.

So, Napoli + Victorino or Gonzalez + Crawford?  I'll take Door #2.


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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 08:46:28 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez than Napoli + Victorino.

I'd rather have Napoli + Victorino than Gonzalez + Beckett + Crawford + Punto.

LA had claimed Beckett on waivers, so he's not really part of the equation.  The Sox could have let him go for nothing.

Punto was making next to nothing, so he wasn't a big concern, either.

So, Napoli + Victorino or Gonzalez + Crawford?  I'll take Door #2.

Gonzo also was claimed on waivers if I recall, so by the same logic wouldnt he also not factor in since they could have just let him go for nothing?
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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 08:52:49 AM »

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I just don't see the logic in letting go of Crawford and Gonzalez for $40 million per year so that you can sign Victorino and Napoli at $26 million per year. The talent downgrade and possible upside of these players having good seasons is massive.

I don't care what the current free agent market is, Victorino and Napoli do not deserve money equaling anything more than $5-6 million a year and any GM and team that pays them more than that are idiots. IMHO.

Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 08:53:47 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez than Napoli + Victorino.

I'd rather have Napoli + Victorino than Gonzalez + Beckett + Crawford + Punto.

LA had claimed Beckett on waivers, so he's not really part of the equation.  The Sox could have let him go for nothing.

Punto was making next to nothing, so he wasn't a big concern, either.

So, Napoli + Victorino or Gonzalez + Crawford?  I'll take Door #2.

Gonzo also was claimed on waivers if I recall, so by the same logic wouldnt he also not factor in since they could have just let him go for nothing?

Sure they could have.  But since I'm arguing that they should have kept him and paid his contract, I'm not understanding your point.


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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 09:01:26 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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This just shows you that hitting the reset button impulsively because you hate your current team doesn't mean you actually have a "plan".

Though it sounds like they're not done making moves given that they need to address pitching still.

Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 09:03:34 AM »

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This just shows you that hitting the reset button impulsively because you hate your current team doesn't mean you actually have a "plan".
LOL...TP. Absolutely.

I would have been happier with signing low money one year deals and waiting a season or two for a superstar free agent than tying up big money on mediocre role players on the plus side of 30.

Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 09:04:20 AM »

Offline Chris

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I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez than Napoli + Victorino.

I'd rather have Napoli + Victorino than Gonzalez + Beckett + Crawford + Punto.

LA had claimed Beckett on waivers, so he's not really part of the equation.  The Sox could have let him go for nothing.

Punto was making next to nothing, so he wasn't a big concern, either.

So, Napoli + Victorino or Gonzalez + Crawford?  I'll take Door #2.

I personally believe (with no direct knowledge) that the trade was arranged well before Beckett was claimed on waivers, and that the Dodgers would not have claimed Beckett, had the deal not been arranged beforehand.  Sure, the Sox could have just reneged, but that kind of stuff doesn't really go over well.

Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 09:08:26 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez than Napoli + Victorino.

I'd rather have Napoli + Victorino than Gonzalez + Beckett + Crawford + Punto.

LA had claimed Beckett on waivers, so he's not really part of the equation.  The Sox could have let him go for nothing.

Punto was making next to nothing, so he wasn't a big concern, either.

So, Napoli + Victorino or Gonzalez + Crawford?  I'll take Door #2.

Gonzo also was claimed on waivers if I recall, so by the same logic wouldnt he also not factor in since they could have just let him go for nothing?

Sure they could have.  But since I'm arguing that they should have kept him and paid his contract, I'm not understanding your point.

I think the Redsox got stuff in return for beckett, namely prospects which isnt being considered here in the either or.  Its not Napoli +Victorino vs Gonzo, beckett, crafword, Punto.
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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 09:16:07 AM »

Offline Chris

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This just shows you that hitting the reset button impulsively because you hate your current team doesn't mean you actually have a "plan".
LOL...TP. Absolutely.

I would have been happier with signing low money one year deals and waiting a season or two for a superstar free agent than tying up big money on mediocre role players on the plus side of 30.

While I agree with this, I actually think these are very much middle of the road FAs these days, and the fact that they are just on 3 year deals makes them much more flexible, than the bad contracts the Sox had signed in the past. 

The Sox still have plenty of money to throw around, if and when a superstar becomes available, but I think these signings allow them to keep their heads above water until that happens, and/or until their next wave of young guys are ready to step up.

Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 09:20:54 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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This just shows you that hitting the reset button impulsively because you hate your current team doesn't mean you actually have a "plan".
LOL...TP. Absolutely.

I would have been happier with signing low money one year deals and waiting a season or two for a superstar free agent than tying up big money on mediocre role players on the plus side of 30.

While I agree with this, I actually think these are very much middle of the road FAs these days, and the fact that they are just on 3 year deals makes them much more flexible, than the bad contracts the Sox had signed in the past. 

The Sox still have plenty of money to throw around, if and when a superstar becomes available, but I think these signings allow them to keep their heads above water until that happens, and/or until their next wave of young guys are ready to step up.

I relly didnt mind the napoli signing.  The Victorino signing worries me a bit though. 

But I agree, I don't think these signings prohibit them from doing anything they would want to do in the future. 
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Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2012, 09:28:35 AM »

Offline Chris

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This just shows you that hitting the reset button impulsively because you hate your current team doesn't mean you actually have a "plan".
LOL...TP. Absolutely.

I would have been happier with signing low money one year deals and waiting a season or two for a superstar free agent than tying up big money on mediocre role players on the plus side of 30.

While I agree with this, I actually think these are very much middle of the road FAs these days, and the fact that they are just on 3 year deals makes them much more flexible, than the bad contracts the Sox had signed in the past. 

The Sox still have plenty of money to throw around, if and when a superstar becomes available, but I think these signings allow them to keep their heads above water until that happens, and/or until their next wave of young guys are ready to step up.

I relly didnt mind the napoli signing.  The Victorino signing worries me a bit though. 

But I agree, I don't think these signings prohibit them from doing anything they would want to do in the future.

Oh, I am not thrilled with the signings either.  But I also don't think either of these are the kind of contracts that kill you. 

You hope they work out, and with Victorino in particular, I think you can at least count on him being an upgrade in the clubhouse, which is something this team needed.  But, they are still small enough that the Sox can eat them if the players really stink. 


Re: Sox sign Victorino
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2012, 09:31:20 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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This just shows you that hitting the reset button impulsively because you hate your current team doesn't mean you actually have a "plan".
LOL...TP. Absolutely.

I would have been happier with signing low money one year deals and waiting a season or two for a superstar free agent than tying up big money on mediocre role players on the plus side of 30.

While I agree with this, I actually think these are very much middle of the road FAs these days, and the fact that they are just on 3 year deals makes them much more flexible, than the bad contracts the Sox had signed in the past. 

The Sox still have plenty of money to throw around, if and when a superstar becomes available, but I think these signings allow them to keep their heads above water until that happens, and/or until their next wave of young guys are ready to step up.

I relly didnt mind the napoli signing.  The Victorino signing worries me a bit though. 

But I agree, I don't think these signings prohibit them from doing anything they would want to do in the future.

Oh, I am not thrilled with the signings either.  But I also don't think either of these are the kind of contracts that kill you. 

You hope they work out, and with Victorino in particular, I think you can at least count on him being an upgrade in the clubhouse, which is something this team needed.  But, they are still small enough that the Sox can eat them if the players really stink.

Mazz actually said yesterday that the sox could be lucky that napoli had a down year last year because if he didnt he would be getting a 5 year 17 mill per year contract
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