Author Topic: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players  (Read 9597 times)

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Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #135 on: November 30, 2012, 12:43:43 PM »

Online Donoghus

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This is not like going to a concert... this is a TEAM sport, meaning there are multiple players on a team, they are there to step in when a player is out (w/e the reason)... when you buy tickets to see a band/singer there are no guys waiting in the wings to step in for them!

You, as fans/businessmen of basketball KNOW going into every game there is a chance that you may not get to see your favorite players AHEAD of time! There are no guarantees (said or unsaid) on who you will see at a basketball game, that's why the team is named San Antonio Spurs and not Duncan, Manu, and Parker. If the fans are upset then that's on them for not knowing what sport they are watching!

If I go to see Usher in concert I am guaranteed to see him on stage, if I go to a Spurs game, I am guaranteed to see the Spurs play, not individual players... if I don't see Usher, I get a refund, if I don't see the SPURS play (if it's their fault), I get a refund. Duncan and Parker are NOT the Spurs, they are just players (who can change at any time) on the Spurs team!


I cannot say I totally agree witht his post.. Teams do not exist in a vaccum nor are teams faceless. To say you pay to watch a team and not individuals is a non sequitor because the team is made of individual players. These franchises have faces and they do market individual players. If I go to watch the Clippers I expect to see CP3 griffin and DeAndre, and there better be a good reason if they are scratched from the lineup. If players did not matter then teams would not market them and put them in ad campaigns to lure people to buy season tickets or even individual tickets.

I also disagree that the NBA is about chips. That is only for the fanatics (fans). Believe it or not there are alot of spectators that go to games just for entertainment and dont give a bleep who wins the chip. The real fans could probably not care less if their team rests players because real fans has their eye on the prize,  but think about the coporate executive that invites his business associates from china to a game at in his box because Lakers are in town and he knows the chinese like Kobe, but kobe is a scratch not because of injury but ;just because' that will p--- him off. I remember when we had Olowokandi on the Celtics and the Cs came to town to play the Clippers I went to that game but I was  not happy because Pierce was a scratch - and in that particular case the Cap was a scratch due to injury. Imagine how upset I would have been if he was scratched on a coache's choice.

Believe it or not but NBA tix are expensive and some families plan for some of these games some scrape money together to make someone's day or dream (special days). Think about the father that maybe put some money together to get his child a ticket to the game because though he lives in Miami is youong child is a huge Duncan fan. That kid would be crushed. That is not what the NBA wants. I am sorry to say but Pop was wrong on this one, and I can see how moves like this can set the league up for litigation.



1) Players come and go for many reasons but who is still there? The fans. That should tell you that the majority aren't there for the "stars" but are there for the players as a collective for what they do for the team. When KG retires, a few of his fans will probably latch on to another player or w/e but watch the stadium still fill up without him!

Yes, you need the elite players to actually win but to get fans in the seats? Sure for some of the fans, but when I look at terrible teams w/ terrible players who still have stands full of people (maybe not sellouts but a lot of fans)... teams that are filled with players you wouldn't want on the bench of yours, it leads me to believe that the vast majority pay to see their team and the players as a collective, not as individuals.

I bet if you go to the average fan wearing a jersey or shoes of one of Sterns hyped up players, the majority of them couldn't tell you much of anything about that player, except for probably that their good and if they have won a championship lately. I bet if you ask the majority of people who wear Jordans about him they probably can only tell you he won some championships and was a great player and the most they probably saw of him was an old clip in a commercial or online.


I can find you 5 people right now who can only tell you LeBron is a good player and that he won them the chip AND they have his jersey in their closet. The only reason they have the jersey is b/c the Heat won the chip. They didn't buy it b/c they like him or even care about him, they just know that he is one of the best players on the team (b/c they hear his name a lot and saw him a few times) but I can tell you that before Mia won none of them owned anything with Lebron on it and could care less about him... they just know that "their team" won, so they bought one of the popular jerseys from the Heat. If it was fashionable to wear a Heat jersey with no name on it they would have bought that instead! Matter of fact I can even introduce you to a few people who hate the Bulls who are "fans" of the Celtics who wear a jersey from players on the Lakers b/c it matches their shoes, pants, and hat... it something I would never do b/c to me that's not a real fan but I hold my judgements to myself. So I asked one (my cousin), and he said I just wear it b/c it matches my fit (and I'm sure b/c it's "popular"). A lot of people wear/buy merchandise of the "star" players but not b/c they like those players it's because it's pushed through marketing and it's fashionable.

2)Did I say the NBA was only about chips? I don't think I did, I said people go to the games of bad teams like Bobcats and Wizards (teams that rarely win 30+ games much less championships)... so I'm fairly sure I didn't say that. Of course some are there for entertainment that's obvious. Even I go to a game of teams I have never even heard of b/c it's the only thing to do around here sometimes... I never thought I was the only one. As cheap as some tickets are... cheap entertainment! But those are usually the people the furthest distance from the action or are the rich people (I'm talking about the ones there solely for entertainment purposes).

3) I have been to many sporting events, I am aware that tickets can be costly.

About the people scraping up money to see those players, honestly, it's a nice thought but they would still be in the same predicament if those players were hurt... there are NO GUARANTEES a certain play will be there/play! A dad could buy tickets for a game the same day and the best players can come down with a virus or something and be out, all after being just fine the day b4 and playing bball. While it's sad for the kid, it's life, you don't always get what you want! What are you saying, they deserve a refund? Pfft.

Scratching fans for injury or illness or other legit reasons is acceptable, you cannot do it just because you feel like it. It wont work. NBA will lose business or get sued.

Sued for what exactly?

Sued for brach of contract that is what the NBA enters into when they sell tickets to an event. It is a contract. You pay money and you expect a promised event. That event includes the players that the NBA advertized. Those who say there are no gurantees miss the point because that argument applies to ANY contract. There are no gurantees in life what you expect in a contract situation is good faith and fair dealing. There is no reason to sit players that have been advertized to play, and are healthy enough to play.

There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.


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Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #136 on: November 30, 2012, 12:48:49 PM »

Online KGs Knee

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #137 on: November 30, 2012, 12:53:01 PM »

Offline bdm860

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

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Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #138 on: November 30, 2012, 12:54:40 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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but the Spurs is not an abstract concept it is made of players and though you do not have a guarantee to see players, the failure to field those players must be for good reason even legitimate reasons. Guess who gets to decide legitimacy - the courts do.

Carry this on and there will be a consumer protection suit, that will make the NBA at the very list stop advertizing stars because THEY MAY NOT PLAY AT COACH'S DISCRETION.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #139 on: November 30, 2012, 12:55:28 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

Even beyond that, aren't home players typically advertised on tickets?  NBA teams don't try to intentionally hurt their fan base.  Pop only does this at the end of long ROAD trips.  The ticket probably had a picture of LeBron or Wade on it.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #140 on: November 30, 2012, 12:57:13 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

If the fine print is used in an unconscionable mannner it will be struck down by the courts as unconscionable. Bottom line is healthy players at the beginning of the season when things are still competitive will have to play otherwise there should be a bold disclaimer. The rosters at the end of the season are different because by then things have settled and FANS KNOW what to expect.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #141 on: November 30, 2012, 12:58:39 PM »

Online KGs Knee

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but the Spurs is not an abstract concept it is made of players and though you do not have a guarantee to see players, the failure to field those players must be for good reason even legitimate reasons. Guess who gets to decide legitimacy - the courts do.

Carry this on and there will be a consumer protection suit, that will make the NBA at the very list stop advertizing stars because THEY MAY NOT PLAY AT COACH'S DISCRETION.

This is dubious, at best.  What "expertise" does any court have on what is "legitimate" basketball strategy?

And, if by chance, a consumer protection suit did result in the NBA being forced to stop marketing it super-stars in the way it does, I would be ecstatic.

The NBA needs to decide if it is the WWE, or a real sports league.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #142 on: November 30, 2012, 12:59:05 PM »

Online Donoghus

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

The one I'm looking at now has "Date and time subject to change" in bold print towards the bottom of the ticket.


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Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2012, 01:00:33 PM »

Online KGs Knee

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

If the fine print is used in an unconscionable mannner it will be struck down by the courts as unconscionable. Bottom line is healthy players at the beginning of the season when things are still competitive will have to play otherwise there should be a bold disclaimer. The rosters at the end of the season are different because by then things have settled and FANS KNOW what to expect.

I'd say your expectations are out of line.  Be it the fault of the NBA marketing department, or, your own.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #144 on: November 30, 2012, 01:00:44 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

Even beyond that, aren't home players typically advertised on tickets?  NBA teams don't try to intentionally hurt their fan base.  Pop only does this at the end of long ROAD trips.  The ticket probably had a picture of LeBron or Wade on it.

Teams always advertize when superstars are coming to town. COME WATCH LEBRON TAKE ON TIM DUNCAN and the SPURS, etc. It is okay if TIM cannot go for a compelling reason, but not just because his coach scatches him. There is also the larger issue of TV. They pay BILLIONS of dollars. Many of you have said you turned off TV when you learned the Spurs stars would not play. That means lower ratings and TV loses. The brass did not pay for that. Stern has to keep the brass at the TV stations happy for their investment in the NBA

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #145 on: November 30, 2012, 01:02:48 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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but the Spurs is not an abstract concept it is made of players and though you do not have a guarantee to see players, the failure to field those players must be for good reason even legitimate reasons. Guess who gets to decide legitimacy - the courts do.

Carry this on and there will be a consumer protection suit, that will make the NBA at the very list stop advertizing stars because THEY MAY NOT PLAY AT COACH'S DISCRETION.

This is dubious, at best.  What "expertise" does any court have on what is "legitimate" basketball strategy?

And, if by chance, a consumer protection suit did result in the NBA being forced to stop marketing it super-stars in the way it does, I would be ecstatic.

The NBA needs to decide if it is the WWE, or a real sports league.

what expertise does a court have in trademark, patents, IT, medicine, psychology, yet courts decide disputes in those areas all the time. You get expert testimony to educate the court and the jury.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #146 on: November 30, 2012, 01:05:52 PM »

Online KGs Knee

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

Even beyond that, aren't home players typically advertised on tickets?  NBA teams don't try to intentionally hurt their fan base.  Pop only does this at the end of long ROAD trips.  The ticket probably had a picture of LeBron or Wade on it.

Teams always advertize when superstars are coming to town. COME WATCH LEBRON TAKE ON TIM DUNCAN and the SPURS, etc. It is okay if TIM cannot go for a compelling reason, but not just because his coach scatches him. There is also the larger issue of TV. They pay BILLIONS of dollars. Many of you have said you turned off TV when you learned the Spurs stars would not play. That means lower ratings and TV loses. The brass did not pay for that. Stern has to keep the brass at the TV stations happy for their investment in the NBA

That's fine, I suppose.  If the NBA decides it's business interests are more important than legitimate basketball interests, they have that right.

I would argue, for the league to have any teeth in pursuing action against the Spurs, they would have had to have established specific, concrete precedent, in advance.

Also, by taking this course, I would submit, the league would be taking another step towards becoming more of a "WWE-type" league, than a "real" sports league.  I hope this does not happen.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2012, 01:09:14 PM »

Online KGs Knee

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but the Spurs is not an abstract concept it is made of players and though you do not have a guarantee to see players, the failure to field those players must be for good reason even legitimate reasons. Guess who gets to decide legitimacy - the courts do.

Carry this on and there will be a consumer protection suit, that will make the NBA at the very list stop advertizing stars because THEY MAY NOT PLAY AT COACH'S DISCRETION.

This is dubious, at best.  What "expertise" does any court have on what is "legitimate" basketball strategy?

And, if by chance, a consumer protection suit did result in the NBA being forced to stop marketing it super-stars in the way it does, I would be ecstatic.

The NBA needs to decide if it is the WWE, or a real sports league.

what expertise does a court have in trademark, patents, IT, medicine, psychology, yet courts decide disputes in those areas all the time. You get expert testimony to educate the court and the jury.

I'd venture to guess that in a suit involving "consumer group X" vs the NBA, the NBA would easily have the upper hand in expert testimony.

That'd be a big up-hill battle for a hypothetical consumer group.

Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #148 on: November 30, 2012, 01:12:48 PM »

Online Donoghus

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There were guaranteed to see the Spurs v. Heat and they saw that.  That's what the ticket said.  I can almost guarantee that.


It didn't say Tim Duncan & Co. on  the ticket.

I'm not missing the point here at all.

TP

This is a spot-on assesment.


If you buy a ticket to a specific game expecting a guarantee to see certain players, you are a fool.

Also isn't there some fine print on the ticket somewhere saying something like dates, times, participants subject to change...

Even beyond that, aren't home players typically advertised on tickets?  NBA teams don't try to intentionally hurt their fan base.  Pop only does this at the end of long ROAD trips.  The ticket probably had a picture of LeBron or Wade on it.

Teams always advertize when superstars are coming to town. COME WATCH LEBRON TAKE ON TIM DUNCAN and the SPURS, etc. It is okay if TIM cannot go for a compelling reason, but not just because his coach scatches him. There is also the larger issue of TV. They pay BILLIONS of dollars. Many of you have said you turned off TV when you learned the Spurs stars would not play. That means lower ratings and TV loses. The brass did not pay for that. Stern has to keep the brass at the TV stations happy for their investment in the NBA

That's fine, I suppose.  If the NBA decides it's business interests are more important than legitimate basketball interests, they have that right.

I would argue, for the league to have any teeth in pursuing action against the Spurs, they would have had to have established specific, concrete precedent, in advance.

Also, by taking this course, I would submit, the league would be taking another step towards becoming more of a "WWE-type" league, than a "real" sports league.  I hope this does not happen.

Not to mention that you had the NBA's Deputy Commissioner (and soon to be Commissioner) stating last April that “Strategic resting of particular players on particular nights is within the discretion of the teams,”

Ooops.....  ::)  I'm sure the lawyers will simply skip over that one.


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Re: Stern to fine Spurs for sitting players
« Reply #149 on: November 30, 2012, 01:14:55 PM »

Offline Chris

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So egregious?


I give it the twitter test.  When I went on twitter yesterday, when it was announced that Pop had sent all those guys home (and before Stern had sent everything), it was blowing up with comments about it.  It had become a major story.  To me, that means that it a significant enough stray from the norm that it is worth addressing. 

If Doc sits KG for a game, there will be a note of it, but it won't be the topic of conversation of every basketball writer in the league, no matter what team they are covering.  But, when you send your 4 best players home before a nationally televised game against the best team in the league, that is noteworthy, and therefore crossing the line IMO.

I don't think it was crossing the line at all.  Sure the TNT executives probably threw a hissy fit but I'm sure Pops could care less and its not his job to appease them anyways.  He's doing what he thinks is right for his team and given the circumstances, I'm totally cool on that.

I think Stern was reactionary and threw a hissy fit without fully thiinking things through here.

I agree that Pops just did his job.  But I also think Stern did his job.

A big deal was made about this in the media, and it looked bad on the NBA.  So he stepped in, and basically said that the NBA does not support this type of decision.

Done and done. 


 

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