Author Topic: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?  (Read 5717 times)

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Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2012, 01:44:46 AM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.

I think putting Ray off the floor as equal contribution sells both Ray and Bradley considerably short. It implies that another person, almost any other capable person (say Pietrus) could've done half as much. I don't think that to be the case.

And ignores that Ray had a very good start to the season until he got injured. If everyone had come ready to play as Ray had, we wouldn't have struggled to begin the season in the first place.

Rondo started well too, but then regressed until the all-star break or so where he become more aggressive and ran the team at a much better pace, which coincided with KG and Pierce doing their job and Bradley becoming a very big contributor to this team.

And this giving more control to Rondo is pure crap in my opinion, Rondo has had pretty much full control of our offense for quite a while now. He's simply been inconsistent on some facets of running the team.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2012, 01:59:36 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2012, 06:03:59 AM »

Offline BballTim

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How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.

I think putting Ray off the floor as equal contribution sells both Ray and Bradley considerably short. It implies that another person, almost any other capable person (say Pietrus) could've done half as much. I don't think that to be the case.

And ignores that Ray had a very good start to the season until he got injured. If everyone had come ready to play as Ray had, we wouldn't have struggled to begin the season in the first place.


  Ray wasn't playing well when he was taken out of the lineup. The fact that his season got off to a fairly good start isn't really the point, it's the Ray struggling with injuries that Bradley replaced.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2012, 06:46:22 AM »

Offline Rickretro

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Sullinger. 

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2012, 07:23:03 AM »

Offline mctyson

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This is an illogical question without knowing whom/what you are trading for.

If you are asking how Celticsblog feels about the "trade value" of said players, I think it is obvious that Bradley probably has more trade value.  Sullinger wouldn't be that far behind though.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2012, 08:28:59 AM »

Offline action781

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I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

I like the Joe Dumars comparison as an idea of Bradley's ceiling.  Joe D was a six-time NBA All-Star.

I've heard that thrown around and Dumars was slightly before my day, so I didn't see him play much.  But I don't see Avery ever being a 23.5ppg scorer in the NBA, so I'd have to disagree.  I don't even see him ever being a 20ppg scorer (even in a more guard-friendly NBA now) unless its on a horrible team.  Dumars scored 20+ ppg 3 times in his career and it was on a contending team.  So I'd say Bradley's ceiling is lower than that, but again, I didn't really see Dumars play.
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Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2012, 08:31:42 AM »

Offline jdz101

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I would do my best not to trade either of them.

They are both good players. You don't trade good players on cheap money unless you get a cracking deal in return. EG: kevin garnett trade.


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Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2012, 08:34:15 AM »

Online hpantazo

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Yep, you just ignored all the points I made about these celtics teams not giving a full effort for large parts of the regular season the last few years. Bradley helped for sure, but he in no way turned our season around, KG, Paul, Rondo, and Ray finally decided to turn the switch on and play hard, as they did the year before when we went to game 7 of the NBA Finals after everyone wrote us off and booed the celtics off the floor in midseason for sucking badly against poor teams. Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year.

Wait a second - you just completely contradicted yourself.  First you say "Bradley helped for sure", and then you followed that with "Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year". 

Either way this entire quote is just plain garbage. Firstly most of our Celtics teams since 2008 actually started seasons strong:

* 2008 - strong start, won title
* 2009 - strong start, then lost KG to injury & defeated by Orlando in ECF
* 2010 - strong start, then lost Perk & defeated by Lakers in Finals
* 2011 - strong start, then lost Shaq due to injury, lost Perk in trade, defeated by Miami in ECSF

In 2012 we had a poor start.  We lost Ray, Jermaine and Wilcox to early health issues and after the All-Star break we had pretty much no choice but to start Avery at SG, start Bass at PF and moved KG over to center as a temporary fix to all of our injury issues.  From this moment on our team almost instantly transformed from mediocre to one of the most dominant teams in the NBA.

Our offense sucked royally - we couldn't score to save our lives.  We couldn't rebound to save our lives.  We were at or near the bottom of the league in both categories.  We were still an elite team after the break because of our defense. 

I will not by any means say that this improvement was ALL on Avery Bradley.  KG's move to center seemed to revitalise him, and Bass found a niche' starting for us at PF.  A LOT of our improvement however came from the impact Avery Bradley had on defense.

From the very first game AB started he immediately made an impact on the defensive end of the floor.  He struggled offensively at the start (with his shooting, ball handling and decision making) but his defense was so good from the get-go that it keept him in the starting lineup, and it kept us winning games.  Initially this was a temporary solution until Ray Allen returned, but once he started to gain confidence his offensive game improved dramatically and at this point his overall impact on the team became so significant that Ray never got his starting job back.     

Look at his numbers.  Look at the our performance with him on vs off the court.  Look at the Net efficiency of our starting lineup with Bradley at SG and compare that to the efficiency of the same lineup with Ray Allen at SG.

You say he had no impact on the playoffs because he was out.  Really? Let me quote a few passages for you.

Quote #1:

Quote
With Avery Bradley on the floor last season the Boston Celtics defensive rating 92.9, the team’s best mark among their regular contributors.  Additionally, Boston also fared worse defensively when Bradley was on the bench more than any other player, registering a defensive rating of 97.5.

Quote #2:

Quote
Beginning with a March 25th win in Philadelphia that saw Bradley play a career-high 40 minutes, the Celtics registered an incredible defensive rating of 92.1 over the final 19 games of the season.  Not coincidentally, Bradley played 25 or more minutes in all of them and Boston went 14-5, storming back from a disappointing 26-22 record to win the Atlantic Division.

Quote #3:

Quote
in the 10 playoff games Bradley took part in before injuring his shoulder, he took things to a whole ‘nother level.  His on-court defensive rating in the postseason? A team-low 87.9.  Boston’s defensive rating when their dynamo defender was on the bench? 100.4, second higher on the team behind Kevin Garnett’s mind-boggling number of 116.5.  Opponents shot a team-low (among regular) 38.2% when Bradley was on the floor, compared to 44.3% when he was riding the pine.  Again, only Garnett’s trumps Bradley’s latter number, truly indicative of KG’s absurd worth to Boston’s playoff success.  But aside from him, the statistics show that no player had as much of a positive impact in the postseason for the Celtics as Bradley.

The intersting part?

Last year our pace was 90.6, last in the league.  This year it's 94.6 which is 19th in the league, so we are playing at a significantly faster pace.  Faster pace means more, possessions and more possessions means more points scored by both teams - keep that in mind. 

When Bradley was our starting SG in the playoffs our defensive rating was 87.9 when he was on the court.  Our defensive rating was 100.4 when he was NOT the court.

This year our defensive rating as a team (without Bradley) is 103.9, and the 4 other starters are the same.  If you consider the faster pace we play at, that's roughly equivalent to what we were allowing in the playoffs last season without Bradley on the court. 

Now this number isn't foolproof because it also factors in our entire team (rather than just the starting linup), but it's something to think about when you consider that our starting linup is playing roughly 70% of our total minutes. 

When AB is back in the roster and back in shape (say 10 games in) it's very possible (actually probable) that our Def Rating will drop by about 12 points per 100 possession when he is on the court.  Our overall team's defensive rating could very easily drop from about 7 points, down from from 103.9 to about 96.9, which would rank us as the second best defense in the NBA behind Atlanta (95.6).

Looking at AB's general statistics, there is no evidence at all to suggest a change like that not possible - in fact it's highly likely.

Take look at guys like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett.  Even the greatest shooters have nights when they are hot, and nights when they are cold.  Look at rebounds - even if you get great position, sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way.  Defense is the one single aspect of the game that you ALWAYS have control over.  This is why an elite defensive player can impact a game more then even the most insanely good offensive player over an 82 game season.  This is why KG still has more impact on us as a team than Rondo does.  This is why AB is a MASSIVELY critical piece for this team, and why his extra minutes on the court were a huge contributer to the Celtic's improvement after the All-star break last year.

Once again, the points I made were completely ingnored for more Bradley propaganda. Oh well. The rest of the team actually getting in shape, healthy, and giving 100 pecent is the biggest reason for our turnaround last year, AND, for our turnaround the year before when Bradley never played, but you conveniently ignore that part.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2012, 09:00:26 AM »

Online Fafnir

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Yep, you just ignored all the points I made about these celtics teams not giving a full effort for large parts of the regular season the last few years. Bradley helped for sure, but he in no way turned our season around, KG, Paul, Rondo, and Ray finally decided to turn the switch on and play hard, as they did the year before when we went to game 7 of the NBA Finals after everyone wrote us off and booed the celtics off the floor in midseason for sucking badly against poor teams. Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year.

Wait a second - you just completely contradicted yourself.  First you say "Bradley helped for sure", and then you followed that with "Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year". 

Either way this entire quote is just plain garbage. Firstly most of our Celtics teams since 2008 actually started seasons strong:

* 2008 - strong start, won title
* 2009 - strong start, then lost KG to injury & defeated by Orlando in ECF
* 2010 - strong start, then lost Perk & defeated by Lakers in Finals
* 2011 - strong start, then lost Shaq due to injury, lost Perk in trade, defeated by Miami in ECSF

In 2012 we had a poor start.  We lost Ray, Jermaine and Wilcox to early health issues and after the All-Star break we had pretty much no choice but to start Avery at SG, start Bass at PF and moved KG over to center as a temporary fix to all of our injury issues.  From this moment on our team almost instantly transformed from mediocre to one of the most dominant teams in the NBA.

Our offense sucked royally - we couldn't score to save our lives.  We couldn't rebound to save our lives.  We were at or near the bottom of the league in both categories.  We were still an elite team after the break because of our defense. 

I will not by any means say that this improvement was ALL on Avery Bradley.  KG's move to center seemed to revitalise him, and Bass found a niche' starting for us at PF.  A LOT of our improvement however came from the impact Avery Bradley had on defense.

From the very first game AB started he immediately made an impact on the defensive end of the floor.  He struggled offensively at the start (with his shooting, ball handling and decision making) but his defense was so good from the get-go that it keept him in the starting lineup, and it kept us winning games.  Initially this was a temporary solution until Ray Allen returned, but once he started to gain confidence his offensive game improved dramatically and at this point his overall impact on the team became so significant that Ray never got his starting job back.     

Look at his numbers.  Look at the our performance with him on vs off the court.  Look at the Net efficiency of our starting lineup with Bradley at SG and compare that to the efficiency of the same lineup with Ray Allen at SG.

You say he had no impact on the playoffs because he was out.  Really? Let me quote a few passages for you.

Quote #1:

Quote
With Avery Bradley on the floor last season the Boston Celtics defensive rating 92.9, the team’s best mark among their regular contributors.  Additionally, Boston also fared worse defensively when Bradley was on the bench more than any other player, registering a defensive rating of 97.5.

Quote #2:

Quote
Beginning with a March 25th win in Philadelphia that saw Bradley play a career-high 40 minutes, the Celtics registered an incredible defensive rating of 92.1 over the final 19 games of the season.  Not coincidentally, Bradley played 25 or more minutes in all of them and Boston went 14-5, storming back from a disappointing 26-22 record to win the Atlantic Division.

Quote #3:

Quote
in the 10 playoff games Bradley took part in before injuring his shoulder, he took things to a whole ‘nother level.  His on-court defensive rating in the postseason? A team-low 87.9.  Boston’s defensive rating when their dynamo defender was on the bench? 100.4, second higher on the team behind Kevin Garnett’s mind-boggling number of 116.5.  Opponents shot a team-low (among regular) 38.2% when Bradley was on the floor, compared to 44.3% when he was riding the pine.  Again, only Garnett’s trumps Bradley’s latter number, truly indicative of KG’s absurd worth to Boston’s playoff success.  But aside from him, the statistics show that no player had as much of a positive impact in the postseason for the Celtics as Bradley.

The intersting part?

Last year our pace was 90.6, last in the league.  This year it's 94.6 which is 19th in the league, so we are playing at a significantly faster pace.  Faster pace means more, possessions and more possessions means more points scored by both teams - keep that in mind. 

When Bradley was our starting SG in the playoffs our defensive rating was 87.9 when he was on the court.  Our defensive rating was 100.4 when he was NOT the court.

This year our defensive rating as a team (without Bradley) is 103.9, and the 4 other starters are the same.  If you consider the faster pace we play at, that's roughly equivalent to what we were allowing in the playoffs last season without Bradley on the court. 

Now this number isn't foolproof because it also factors in our entire team (rather than just the starting linup), but it's something to think about when you consider that our starting linup is playing roughly 70% of our total minutes. 

When AB is back in the roster and back in shape (say 10 games in) it's very possible (actually probable) that our Def Rating will drop by about 12 points per 100 possession when he is on the court.  Our overall team's defensive rating could very easily drop from about 7 points, down from from 103.9 to about 96.9, which would rank us as the second best defense in the NBA behind Atlanta (95.6).

Looking at AB's general statistics, there is no evidence at all to suggest a change like that not possible - in fact it's highly likely.

Take look at guys like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett.  Even the greatest shooters have nights when they are hot, and nights when they are cold.  Look at rebounds - even if you get great position, sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way.  Defense is the one single aspect of the game that you ALWAYS have control over.  This is why an elite defensive player can impact a game more then even the most insanely good offensive player over an 82 game season.  This is why KG still has more impact on us as a team than Rondo does.  This is why AB is a MASSIVELY critical piece for this team, and why his extra minutes on the court were a huge contributer to the Celtic's improvement after the All-star break last year.

Once again, the points I made were completely ingnored for more Bradley propaganda. Oh well. The rest of the team actually getting in shape, healthy, and giving 100 pecent is the biggest reason for our turnaround last year, AND, for our turnaround the year before when Bradley never played, but you conveniently ignore that part.
Well given that you're characterizing his opinions as "propoganda" to just repeat what you said, perhaps you both can just happily ignore each other.

Also once again Bradley didn't miss our playoff run, in fact in the playoffs we played our best ball as a team when he was able to stay on the court.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2012, 09:27:07 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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The wrong question keeps getting asked.



It is not how good could these two be and/or are.




It is "does the trade make the team better now and give them a better chance to get past the Heat?"


If the answer is "NO", don't make the move.

If the answer is "YES", make the move.


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2012, 09:35:57 AM »

Offline Chris

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The wrong question keeps getting asked.



It is not how good could these two be and/or are.




It is "does the trade make the team better now and give them a better chance to get past the Heat?"


If the answer is "NO", don't make the move.

If the answer is "YES", make the move.

I think this is the first question.  If the answer is Yes, I think you make the move.  If the answer is no, then you need to go on to question 2.

"Does this move give the team a better chance to remain competitive in the long-term?"

If the answer for that is Yes, then you still make the move IMO.

I think there could be moves that might not put this team over the top this year, but give us a building block perhaps better than the young guy we are trading.  I don't think its likely, because I think both of those guys values are not nearly as high as others think...but you never know if a GM would fall in love with one of them.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2012, 09:41:44 AM »

Online Fafnir

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Yeah I think Bradley's value is too high for Boston for this season compared to what other team's think of him.

Sullinger I can see moved more easily, but even then I'm not sure. A guy like him who can play right now but whose long term future is somewhat shaky, reminds me of Blair. It seems to me those guys have the most value for a win now team who needs cheap production out of young players.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2012, 09:47:01 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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The wrong question keeps getting asked.



It is not how good could these two be and/or are.




It is "does the trade make the team better now and give them a better chance to get past the Heat?"


If the answer is "NO", don't make the move.

If the answer is "YES", make the move.

I think this is the first question.  If the answer is Yes, I think you make the move.  If the answer is no, then you need to go on to question 2.

"Does this move give the team a better chance to remain competitive in the long-term?"

If the answer for that is Yes, then you still make the move IMO.

I think there could be moves that might not put this team over the top this year, but give us a building block perhaps better than the young guy we are trading.  I don't think its likely, because I think both of those guys values are not nearly as high as others think...but you never know if a GM would fall in love with one of them.


Very true.


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2012, 09:55:01 AM »

Offline Chris

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Sullinger I can see moved more easily, but even then I'm not sure. A guy like him who can play right now but whose long term future is somewhat shaky, reminds me of Blair. It seems to me those guys have the most value for a win now team who needs cheap production out of young players.

I agree to a point.  For Sully, I really think its too early to tell though.  It just seems like he is just starting to settle in over the last few games.  I think there is a chance he could really explode over the next two months, particularly if he gets to play more next to KG, who is the perfect compliment to him.  And if thats the case, his value could skyrocket above what it should be.  But right now, I think he is still seen as a dime a dozen bruiser.

Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2012, 11:58:33 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Sully is a gold nugget , I just don't see Danny trading his young fellow off. He is YEARS ahead of most college stars like JJJ .  JJJ may NEVER become the player Sully is now.

Kids head is screwed on straight and thats hard to come by in these days of spoiled divas.  He is mature beyound his years in more than basketball. Both guys have work ethics that are uncommon for their ages.

I look for AB and Sully to be a part of this team a long time. It would have to be a very special player for Danny to trade the Celtics future off.

Frankly the future looks good with Rondo, Melo and Joseph.

 
   


 

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