Author Topic: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.  (Read 10297 times)

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Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2012, 05:02:04 PM »

Offline Chris

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I don't see why Lowry is so valuable. He is not the type of player you can build a team around. He is the third or fourth best player on a strong team. Calderon is a fourth best player on a top team kind of player too.

Lowry is a really good player, better than Calderon, but I don't see him being good enough for him to be a deal breaker if Toronto is serious about Pau Gasol. And if they are not serious about Pau Gasol, I do not understand why they are offering a Bargnani + Calderon package for him (which is a rumour / report I still do not fully believe - I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN just ran with someone else's rumour and reported as a fact).

Question -  What changes dramatically about Toronto's future by giving Lowry + Bargnani instead of Calderon + Bargnani? Very little. It's pretty much the same level of team they are left with. Am I missing something here? Is there some major value I am not seeing?

It's not that Lowry is that valuable, it is that Calderon is even less valuable, and that Toronto doesn't have a whole lot of need of Gasol in the first place.

Lowry is a middle of the road starting PG, Calderon is a good backup, or would be a bottom tier starter at this point in his career.  Lowry also has a more enticing contract, because he is signed, but not guaranteed at a relatively small number next year, while Calderon is gone at the end of the year.

If Toronto were a team that just needed Gasol to get over the hump and being a contender, I am with you, they would give up Lowry no problem.  But they are not.  That is why I think their offer would be basically take it or leave it.

Right, but what is the difference between having Pau Gasol + Kyle Lowry and having Pau Gasol + Jose Calderon? 

For Toronto. Where are they with each combination? Where will they be in the standings? What are their playoff chances? Is there really that much of a difference between where they will be post trade with Lowry vs Calderon to make it a deal breaker?

To me, it looks a very similar type of team overall with Lowry or Calderon.

Honestly?  The difference is you have a decently valuable asset going into next year if you still have Lowry.  If you have Calderon, you don't.

So the quality of the team is similar but the quality of the trade assets left is too much of a drop-off, is that right? Is that what you mean.

yes, exactly.

Okay. I understand. Yeah, okay, I can see that reason being a deal-breaker.

And I don't think it would be a dealbreaker for a team like say, Minnesota, who have legitimate playoff aspirations.  But Toronto...this is just shuffling the cards at this point.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2012, 05:14:06 PM »

Offline Who

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Any move for Pau Gasol is a short term move and against the Raptors long term interests.

There is no long term plan there. There never has been. Not since Bosh left. Heck, not even while Bosh was there. Not since Bryan Colangelo arrived. All Colangelo has ever done is shuffle the cards since 2007. TJ Ford. Jermaine O'Neal. Shawn Marion. Hedo Turkoglu.

I still do not believe it'll matter. Lowry or Calderon. I do understand where Chris is coming from and I do consider that a legitimate reason (future trade assets) not do the deal but I do not believe Toronto is thinking like that. I see no long term plan in place there. Nor do I see any long term benefits from acquiring Pau Gasol regardless of which trade package is selected. It's a here and now trade. That's where the focus is.

It's just a GM treading water and deflecting blame away from himself ... like Bryan Colangelo has continually done for the last 5 years in Toronto.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2012, 05:25:52 PM »

Online hpantazo

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Any move for Pau Gasol is a short term move and against the Raptors long term interests.

There is no long term plan there. There never has been. Not since Bosh left. Heck, not even while Bosh was there. Not since Bryan Colangelo arrived. All Colangelo has ever done is shuffle the cards since 2007. TJ Ford. Jermaine O'Neal. Shawn Marion. Hedo Turkoglu.

I still do not believe it'll matter. Lowry or Calderon. I do understand where Chris is coming from and I do consider that a legitimate reason (future trade assets) not do the deal but I do not believe Toronto is thinking like that. I see no long term plan in place there. Nor do I see any long term benefits from acquiring Pau Gasol regardless of which trade package is selected. It's a here and now trade. That's where the focus is.

It's just a GM treading water and deflecting blame away from himself ... like Bryan Colangelo has continually done for the last 5 years in Toronto.

I agree. There is absolutely no good reason for Toronto to want Gasol at his age, and they shouldn't be trying to get rid of Bargniani either, but it all fits into how they operate. Calderon however would make sense to deal this year.

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2012, 05:45:24 PM »

Online Vermont Green

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Why don't we try to trade Green and something for Bargnani and Pietrus?
Because we don't need another big man who is a mediocre rebounder, doesn't block shots, and likes to shoot jumpers?
  I think mediocre rebounder is something of an understatement.

My point was more in response to the comments that a package around Bargnani for LA was so much better than Green, Lee, Bass for Gasol.

Bargnani would probably be an upgrade over Green (I hate to say) especially if we got Pietrus to be the new back up 3.  As compared to Gasol though, Gasol is more complete than Bargnani but if Gasol is gimpy, wouldn't we be better off with the younger, kind of soft big man than giving up 2 more good players (Bass and Lee) to get a more expensive, possibly serially injured, older, more expensive, also kind of soft, but more versitile player?

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2012, 06:07:55 PM »

Offline Bombastic Jones

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I like Gasol, and think he'd be a good fit in Boston, but I think that Boston can get what it needs—for much cheaper and younger—with Gortat.

I like Gasol, but agree with you; I prefer Gortat.

A fan at "Bright Side of the Sun" proposed this:

Quote
I keep thinking the Celtics trade is the best out there
Out: Gortat, Wesley+2nd rounder
In: Bradley, Sullinger, Fab Melo and Courtney Lee

Boston do it for two reasons

-They finally get a starting caliber center that can play defense and will excel in their basketball scheme.

-Get rid of Courtney Lee 4 year contract.

I say:  Bradley, Green, Fab  for Gortat and Toxic Beasley.



Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2012, 06:11:33 PM »

Offline Geo123

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I like Gasol, and think he'd be a good fit in Boston, but I think that Boston can get what it needs—for much cheaper and younger—with Gortat.

I like Gasol, but agree with you; I prefer Gortat.

A fan at "Bright Side of the Sun" proposed this:

Quote
I keep thinking the Celtics trade is the best out there
Out: Gortat, Wesley+2nd rounder
In: Bradley, Sullinger, Fab Melo and Courtney Lee

Boston do it for two reasons

-They finally get a starting caliber center that can play defense and will excel in their basketball scheme.

-Get rid of Courtney Lee 4 year contract.

I say:  Bradley, Green, Fab  for Gortat and Toxic Beasley.

Wouldn't touch Beasley with a ten foot pole...

Re: Pau Gasol - We need to make a move for him.
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2012, 09:01:15 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Talent wise, it seems that Sota & Toronto's packages are better, but, do they fit with what the Lakers have already? Also, do they fit D'Antoni's system?
Toronto's package in that sense does fit the system, but, Calderon would be redundant behind Nash & Blake, so it just leaves them with Bargani...

Why is this a problem? 

Apparently D'Antoni wants a 7 footer who can step out and shoot threes while having a 'passible' post game and getting the occsional rebound - a Rashard Lewis type.

Bargani is exactly that type of player.

Nash is currently injured and is about 400 years old.  Blake is absolute garbage - he's so bad that even on our roster he wouldn't break the PG rotation...and we only have one PG!

If the Lakers get Calderon they get a guy who is more or less a clone of Nash.  Excellent playmaker, outstanding outside shooter.  When Nash steps out Calderon could come in and take over seamlessly.  Then Blake either gets cut, traded or benched.  Having a backup as good as Calderon would allow the Lakers to keep Nash's minutes down around 24 per game so they can keep him fresh for the playoffs, and Calderon can then still get a solie 24 - 30 minutes a night (he's big enough to spend some time at SG too).

Now look at the trade we would supposedly offer them.  Courtney Lee is mediocre - he defends ok when he feels like it, he's shot horribly all season and he doesn't offer much else outside of defense and shooting. He might fit "OK" for the lakers, but certainly not a game changer.

Bass is a  big who has no inside game, rebounds at a mediocre rate and no three point range.  Hell if I needed my big man to take a three I would trust Gasol (or even KG) over Bass any day of the week.  Bass makes zero sense for LA based on how he played last season, let alone his dissapointing play so far this season.

Green would be much better suited to what the Lakers want at PF (an athletic big who can stretch the floor) and he'd probably work well at PF with Dwight behind him...but then Dwight is horribly foul prone, and Green could not play spot minutes at center the way Gasol or Bargani could. 

As a SF Green's defense varies from very good (as he played against Durant in the last OKC game) to horrendous (as he's played during most other occasions).  Which version you get seems to depend on who he plays against - when he plays with emotion he plays great, but most of the time it's like he's just going through the motions.

I just don