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Would you trade Avery Bradley to get Marcin Gortat if that is the only deal the Suns would accept?

Yes
40 (51.3%)
No
38 (48.7%)

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Author Topic: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)  (Read 7231 times)

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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2012, 10:26:50 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I really like this team, but if Marcin Gortat is available and Danny's in line to get him for a package that doesn't include any of our three star players, I feel that we have to at least consider it. 

THIS


I'd give up Lee, Sully, Melo and a pick for Gortat in a heartbeat.  I love Sully, but Gortat is clearly a much better player right now- and we are gunning for banner 18 THIS year

Getting Marcin Gortat in no way guarantees us a trip to the Finals.  We almost beat Miami last year with a team that had even less big depth than we do now.  Not having a center WAS NOT the reason Miami beat us last year.

Now...you could argue that there is a good chance we won't get lucky enough to reach the EC Finals without an improvement down low.  Maybe we don't need a Gortat-like player to beat Miami, but we might need that player to beat the Knicks or Nets.  I don't know if I agree, but that is a more reasonable position than "Gortat = Banner 18."

Also, remember the conversation people were having on these boards last year.  It was either "blow it up" or "keep it together."  There was some strength to the "blow it up" argument.  This is a team that needs to REBUILD FOR THE FUTURE.  We cannot continue to trot out Pierce and KG indefinitely, supplementing them with the Jason Terrys and Wilcoxs of the world, and expect to win a championship.

If we dump Avery Bradley and Sullinger, or one of those with Melo and future picks, we are flushing any youth this team has down the toilet.  You may be in favor of that.  I am not.

Marcin Gortat is 28 years old.  I would consider his acquisition a move for the present as well as for the future. 
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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2012, 10:59:57 AM »

Offline Jon

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While I will say it's very much up to debate the merits of trading Avery Bradley, I do think that we all need to be realistic here. 

Unless Phoenix is feeling ridiculously generous, it's going to at least take Avery Bradley, a good player with salary (Bass likely), and a sweetener like Melo, Sully or a pick to get this done. 

Gortat is a legitimate NBA center averaging 11, 9, and 2.5 this season.  And he's arguably being underused in Phoenix right now.

You don't get a player like him by giving up a package of role players and second round picks. 

Personally, I'd do it.  As others have pointed out, Gortat is only 28, so he's going to be good for at least 5 more years (and likely more).  With he and Rondo secured, we'd have the two toughest positions to get quality players covered. 

I'd really miss Bradley, but you have to give up something to get something. 

Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2012, 11:35:45 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.


Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2012, 11:52:50 AM »

Offline alajet

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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2012, 12:09:08 PM »

Offline action781

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2012, 12:21:44 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.

Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.

Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.

Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2012, 12:23:22 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.

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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2012, 12:35:22 PM »

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

LeBron can easily defend Gortat. As can Rashard Lewis. Gortat is a limited shot-creator. Not a strong enough offensive player to force Miami away from their small-ball lineup.

If Spoelstra panics and makes a misguided decision to go away from his small-ball lineup in order to matchup against Marcin Gortat, he is a bloody idiot. Miami loses a lot more than it gains by going big to match-up against Boston in that scenario.

Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2012, 12:50:49 PM »

Offline Jon

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With the whole Miami debate, keep in mind that the C's could still play KG at the 5 spot a lot even with Gortat.  Start them both, take KG out after 5 minutes, bring him back in for Gortat towards the end of the first quarter.  For the rest of the game, we could largely alternate them back and forth at the 5 spot playing the likes of Green, Wilcox, and Sully/Bass (whoever is left) at the 4 spot. 

Even if playing them together is the death sentence that some make it out to be, I'd still be rather pleased with having KG play 28 minutes and Gortat 20 (though you could likely play them together when LeBron sits).  The C's always have a rebounder, shot blocker, and post threat on the floor then. 

Then Gortat is there for other series like if we play LA or if Bynum ever gets healthy in Philly. 

Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2012, 12:54:41 PM »

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.


The pick and roll would be very hard for Miami to stop without any rim protection though. Rondo at the top of the key with a double pick from Gortat and Kg would be incredibly difficult to defend. Gortat rolls. KG pops. Go under and Rondo is shooting and he is knocking that shot down ever since the ECF. Go over and Rondo is at the hoop. Pierce and Terry on the perimeter keeping guys honest as well.

We basically incorporate a lot more zone and force James and Wade to hit shots. We get almost anything at the rim on offense. We also likely dominate the boards and slow the game down with more points in the paint.

Have you seem the Heat's Defense? It's not as good. The combination of small ball and the fact that Ray Allen and Reshard Lewis aren't good fits in their defensive system have hurt them a lot.

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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2012, 01:03:00 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

LeBron can easily defend Gortat. As can Rashard Lewis. Gortat is a limited shot-creator. Not a strong enough offensive player to force Miami away from their small-ball lineup.

If Spoelstra panics and makes a misguided decision to go away from his small-ball lineup in order to matchup against Marcin Gortat, he is a bloody idiot. Miami loses a lot more than it gains by going big to match-up against Boston in that scenario.

Neither Lewis or James will out rebound him. If James is defending Gortat then KG is pulling Bosh away from the basket and out of rebounding position. Boarding over Gortat is much more difficult then boarding over Pierce or Green.

Lewis has no chance of defending a pick and roll with Rondo and Gortat. His lateral quickness is gone and Miami lacks the bigs to play pick and roll well. No one really creates shots on the Celtics any more. It's all Rondo. Pierce off picks and pin-downs. KG pick and roll. It's why Terry and Lee have struggled a bit. They were used to having the ball in their hands more. Especially Jet b/c he as mostly pick and roll with Dirk.

Were not going to throw Gortat the ball on the block and say go to work. He will play off Rondo like the rest of the roster.

If Miami can't out-rebound us and we are getting second chance points, points in the paint, and lots of points at the rim due to their lack of shot blocking then they will no longer go small.

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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2012, 01:07:24 PM »

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

LeBron can easily defend Gortat. As can Rashard Lewis. Gortat is a limited shot-creator. Not a strong enough offensive player to force Miami away from their small-ball lineup.

If Spoelstra panics and makes a misguided decision to go away from his small-ball lineup in order to matchup against Marcin Gortat, he is a bloody idiot. Miami loses a lot more than it gains by going big to match-up against Boston in that scenario.

Neither Lewis or James will out rebound him. If James is defending Gortat then KG is pulling Bosh away from the basket and out of rebounding position. Boarding over Gortat is much more difficult then boarding over Pierce or Green.

Lewis has no chance of defending a pick and roll with Rondo and Gortat. His lateral quickness is gone and Miami lacks the bigs to play pick and roll well. No one really creates shots on the Celtics any more. It's all Rondo. Pierce off picks and pin-downs. KG pick and roll. It's why Terry and Lee have struggled a bit. They were used to having the ball in their hands more. Especially Jet b/c he as mostly pick and roll with Dirk.

Were not going to throw Gortat the ball on the block and say go to work. He will play off Rondo like the rest of the roster.

If Miami can't out-rebound us and we are getting second chance points, points in the paint, and lots of points at the rim due to their lack of shot blocking then they will no longer go small.
LeBron will out-rebound Gortat. He is stronger, quicker and more agile than Gortat. Gortat has solid size/length but not overwhelming size/length. LeBron will be able to box-out Gortat effectively on the defensive glass. And on the other end of the floor, Miami's shooters will pull Gortat (or KG) away from the boards. LeBron will out-rebound Gortat.

Rashard Lewis will not be able to out-rebound. Again, Rashard will be able to effectively box Gortat out on defensive glass. Rashard Lewis will defend Gortat almost as well as Joel Anthony would and do so without Miami having to sacrifice it's offensive effectiveness.

This is not a matchup problem for Miami. This is a matchup advantage for them.

Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.


The pick and roll would be very hard for Miami to stop without any rim protection though. Rondo at the top of the key with a double pick from Gortat and Kg would be incredibly difficult to defend. Gortat rolls. KG pops. Go under and Rondo is shooting and he is knocking that shot down ever since the ECF. Go over and Rondo is at the hoop. Pierce and Terry on the perimeter keeping guys honest as well.

We basically incorporate a lot more zone and force James and Wade to hit shots. We get almost anything at the rim on offense. We also likely dominate the boards and slow the game down with more points in the paint.

Have you seem the Heat's Defense? It's not as good. The combination of small ball and the fact that Ray Allen and Reshard Lewis aren't good fits in their defensive system have hurt them a lot.

I think offensively you're on to something, in that Gortat would work very well with our P&R, but your idea about going zone, I don't buy it. People have been trying for years to use the zone to force Wade and LeBron into shooting jumpers. Its never worked consistently. You need an athletic versatile defender to make life tough for LeBron, and you hope Wade or Bosh aren't enough to beat you.

Garnett is athletic and versatile, but he's not athletic or versatile enough  to defend LeBron, and Gortat isn't good enough to D up Bosh.

I'm not arguing that Gortat could help us on offense. I just don't think he'd be a huge help against the Heat. He'd make us a better team, just likely wouldn't work out against the Heat.

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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2012, 01:09:11 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs.  It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense.  If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.

More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's.  Gortat does nothing to fix that.

Yes he does.  When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.

Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it.  Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.

I don't agree.

Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:

1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.

2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.

1) I think Marcin Gortat is a much better help defender and rim protector than you give him credit for.  This would give Garnett more freedom to roam as a power forward.  If Miami is playing with James and Battier as their 3 and 4, I would put Garnett on Battier and Pierce on James.  Garnett can cover Battier out at the 3 point line and still help out in the paint.  This is what makes him the best help defender in the world. 

2) I'm sure that's true.  That's the case for every player in the NBA matched up against Lebron James regardless of natural position.  James is by far the best player in the league.  That said, KG represents a tougher matchup for James than most.  He has a hard time matching up with KG inside.  The Celtics went to post plays and pick and roll plays with Rondo and Garnett with a lot of success in last year's ECF.  Miami had a really hard time dealing with Garnett. 

If we had a center of Gortat's size and ability we could maximize our size advantage against the likes of Miami.  Going small ball would mean playing KG at center.  This would give us so much more versatility in matching up with all teams in the league, not just the Heat. 
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Re: Gortat/Bradley merged thread. (the one and only)
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2012, 01:13:04 PM »

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No one really creates shots on the Celtics any more. It's all Rondo. Pierce off picks and pin-downs. KG pick and roll. It's why Terry and Lee have struggled a bit. They were used to having the ball in their hands more. Especially Jet b/c he as mostly pick and roll with Dirk.

Rondo, Pierce, Garnett, Terry, Barbosa and Jeff Green are capable to very strong shot-creators. Sullinger may also become a good shot-creator as the season progress. We'll have to wait and see on Sully.

Bradley (cutter, spot up, transition), Bass (spot up shooter mostly), Wilcox (finisher around the rim, transition) and Lee (spot up shooter, transition) are limited shot-creators. Gortat would be another limited shot-creator (finisher around the basket). Jason Collins a non-shot-creator.

 

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